Antique Chinese QiJia Saber

[ltp95002]

Just to add some interests to Chinese saber, here is a nice example of Qi Jia Dao. Starting in Ming, to improve the quality of its sabers, these sabers started to be made modeling after Japanese sword. In the collector's circle they are called Qi Jia Dao, as legend has it were first made for the famous general Qi Ji-guang. This style continued into early Qing.

This sample has an interesting groove, and the iron fittings are unique as well. The fittings has remnant of silver decoration, but hard to show in the pictures.

[Sajen]

Interesting piece, are you going to restore it?

Regards,
Detlef

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by ltp95002

Just to add some interests to Chinese saber, here is a nice example of Qi Jia Dao. Starting in Ming, to improve the quality of its sabers, these sabers started to be made modeling after Japanese sword. In the collector's circle they are called Qi Jia Dao, as legend has it were first made for the famous general Qi Ji-guang. This style continued into early Qing.

This sample has an interesting groove, and the iron fittings are unique as well. The fittings has remnant of silver decoration, but hard to show in the pictures.

Hi,
Interesting sword. You can see the Japanese influence in the blade and the groove looks very similar in size and position as the grooves in some Japanese military swords that I have in my collection. Thanks for sharing.

[ltp95002]

Yes at some point this will be polished and restored.

This is similar to Japanese sword, but the groove probably has more an Arabian influence. If you look this has a double grooves that meet at the end near guard.

[Philip]

Agreed, the single to double channel effect you see on this fullering has little to do with the Japanese tradition, it is far more apparent in the sword cultures of parts of the Middle East and, more importantly, Europe during the 16th-18th cents. If someone can give me hints on how to post images, I'll share some (tried the click and drag and it doesn't work

[Rick]

To help you get started:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13631

[Philip]

Thanks, Rick, I figured out the process but my pics are all too large for the forum platform. Members suggest several software programs to shrink them, don't know which to pick. Do you have a favorite among those that's efficient and easy?

[Philip]

While getting the photo issues straightened out, I'd like to just point out at present that many writers put too much emphasis on Japanese influence on Ming saber design. True, the disc guards and cord-wrapped guards prompt a casual association. True, Qi Jiguang had a thing or two to say about Japanese arms and tactics because a lot of his career was focused on dealing with the coastal pirates (who BTW also included as many Chinese ne'er-do-wells, and quite a few Malay and Portuguese adventurers in their overall number). True, the Kango trade brought shiploads of katana blades to China during the Ming. But also....

People tend to forget that for most of the Ming, China's security issues focused on Inner Asia -- the regions to the west, and north of the Great Wall. After all the dynasty came to power after the Yuan (Mongol) Dynasty was overthrown, and the Mongols didn't just slink away without a whimper. Military conflict continued, and armies tend to crib their enemies' good ideas to boost their chances of winning.

The peoples of Inner Asia, being steppe nomads, had limited manufacturing resources and for things like swords, obtained things from neighboring peoples, especially those ethnically related and not openly hostile to them. The Mongols for a long time had close relations with Turkic and Iranic peoples of Central Asia, who in turn were cousins of those further west who had established great empires of their own and who were skilled armorers in their own right -- Khazars, Timurids, Seljuks, etc.

If you look at the population of existing Chinese sabers of the Ming and the transition period into the Qing, and examine the stylistic elements of the blades, you will find that they have more in common with the sabers of the late-medieval and early-modern Middle East, (especially the Seljuk/Ottoman Turks, Iran, the Mamluks) and later during the Qing, Mughal India. All of these cultures weren't slouches when it came to making sabers, and it's debatable whether the Japanese katana is necessarily "better" than any of these continental sword types in terms of functionality.

When Qi Jiguang was battling the coastal pirates, China was just beginning its transition away from the double-edged jian and the straight single edged zhibeidao as the dominant military sidearm, so it is no wonder why China's late imperial saber types have so much variety in the style of their blades. The 15th-17th cents. were a period of experimentation and evolution, with favorite forms maturing in the 18th and then declining into decadence in the 19th as the empire decayed.

Oh, another thing. The Qijiadao in this post has a blade that would be recognizeable on any number of Korean sabers as well, but we can save that story for another time. This subject is far more complex than the simplified narrative that one can deduce just from reading the works of Gen. Qi. In this case, it would do well for collectors to perhaps step back from the traditional Chinese fixation on texts, and include an exhaustive hands on study of the objects themselves in all their variety.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Philip

Thanks, Rick, I figured out the process but my pics are all too large for the forum platform. Members suggest several software programs to shrink them, don't know which to pick. Do you have a favorite among those that's efficient and easy?

Hi Philip,
I use irfanview (free) from www.irfanview.com .
It's a basic image manipulating software program and the resize feature will give you sizes that are acceptable for upload along with other useful features.

[Philip]

Let's see if I have it right. There should be a pic of 3 sabers showing the bifurcation of a single wider channel as interpreted by swordsmiths in different cultures. The bare blade at the top is Chinese, probably 18th cent., the saber in the middle is Polish from a century earlier, and the shorter one at bottom is from Vietnam, early 19th cent. Each blade is a different size and contour to suit the needs of the culture that used them, but this one element of the fullering is pretty constant. The same blade as on the Polish saber can also be found mounted up as a kilij in the Ottoman Empire.

[Philip]

Thanks, Rick, for the tech tip.
Getting back to my earlier post, here are several examples of the forte sections of Chinese saber blades of the 17th-18th cent. (apologies for the one at far right, the curvature looks funny because of parallax, didn't adjust lens accordingly). You will find one format or another (fullers and chiseled decor) on any number of saber blades from Mamluk Egypt, the Ottoman Empire, Safavid Iran, and Mughal India, made between the 16th to 18th cents. There are other common elements to be found as well, including sharpened back-edges (in effect creating a double-edged point), the sleeves with scalloped profiles at the base of blades, etc. which also demonstrate the profound influence of western Asian traditions on Chinese armaments.

[benny.lee]

Strictly speaking
This is not called “QI JIADAO"

[benny.lee]

Originally Posted by ltp95002

Just to add some interests to Chinese saber, here is a nice example of Qi Jia Dao. Starting in Ming, to improve the quality of its sabers, these sabers started to be made modeling after Japanese sword. In the collector's circle they are called Qi Jia Dao, as legend has it were first made for the famous general Qi Ji-guang. This style continued into early Qing.

This sample has an interesting groove, and the iron fittings are unique as well. The fittings has remnant of silver decoration, but hard to show in the pictures.

The DAO is very interesting.

[josh stout]

I agree, it is not what I would call a “Qijia dao”.

‘Qijia” is a collectors’ term referring to sabers with a willow leaf shape and no fullers. As Philip points out, the curved blade shape more likely had its origin in the step peoples, and “Qijia” is an after the fact name to explain early willow leaf blades with a faceted diamond shaped cross section. Examples with good age and a faceted cross section may well be Ming, but they lack faceted tips and the upward angled hilts of Japanese blades. Willow leaf blades without faceting and without fullers are also sometimes called “Qijia”, but they seem to come from the mid to late 19th c..

Thank you Philip for your lovely photos of fullers showing outside influences on Chinese sabers.

Here is an example of what I would call a Qijia dao with a heavy faceted blade. The faceting is worn with age, but it is quite obvious in person. There is no sign of faceting at the tip and the hilt continues the blade profile. It was re-hilted at a later date with typical 19th c. village workmanship, but the blade itself was once very fine and could be Ming.

[mariusgmioc]

Hello,

Just a few thoughts regarding the Dao of the original posting.

While the condition of the blade makes very difficult to have a positive ID, I am inclined to believe this is an imported Japanese blade.

The fuller, both in shape and position, is also quite typical "bo-hi" of the Japanese blades.

During the late 16th century, Japanese blades (mostly mass produced) were heavily traded with China and Korea and many ended up with in Chinese and Korean mounts. And I think this is one of them.

[josh stout]

Not being an expert in Japanese swords and having seen similar swords from China, I would like to know your reasoning. I thought that in Japanese blades the hilt does not turn down (toward the edge) from the blade like in Chinese sabers and the one shown. I also thought that a diamond cross section with a faceted tip were also common. I don't see those characteristics in the example shown. Were Japanese blades made to look just like Chinese blades for export? If so, how can you tell them apart? The pattern of the fuller does not look out of the ordinary for a Chinese blade. My understanding of Japanese swords is that they had a softer core with a hard steel jacket while Chinese blades have a hard edge inserted into a softer back. Which one of these techniques do you see in this blade? Is this an appropriate way to differentiate the two in your opinion?

[Timo Nieminen]

I've seen photos of supposedly Japanese-made Ming swords with the tangs exposed, and their tangs look like typical Chinese tangs. So either (a) their identification as Japanese was incorrect, or (b) the Japanese made Chinese-style tangs for export blades, or (c) the tangs were locally modified.

I'd just add that sanmei/three-plate and inserted-edge construction were used in Japan. AFAIK, kobuse (hard skin, soft core) lamination became dominant in the Edo Period, and sanmei/sanmai was the most common before that.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by josh stout

Not being an expert in Japanese swords and having seen similar swords from China, I would like to know your reasoning. I thought that in Japanese blades the hilt does not turn down (toward the edge) from the blade like in Chinese sabers and the one shown. I also thought that a diamond cross section with a faceted tip were also common. I don't see those characteristics in the example shown. Were Japanese blades made to look just like Chinese blades for export? If so, how can you tell them apart? The pattern of the fuller does not look out of the ordinary for a Chinese blade. My understanding of Japanese swords is that they had a softer core with a hard steel jacket while Chinese blades have a hard edge inserted into a softer back. Which one of these techniques do you see in this blade? Is this an appropriate way to differentiate the two in your opinion?

Hello Josh,

Yes, you are right with your questions and I will try to answer.

As far as I know, the Japanese blades that were exported, were no different from the standard mass produced Katanas. They were the classic shinogi-zukuri shape with the nakago/tang somehow bent towards the back of the blade.

Regarding this sword, I believe I can recognize the shinogi-zukuri shape but the tip/kissaki could have been reshaped. By carefully examining the blade (see the photo), one can observe that it appears to have a ridge - shinogi - meaning the blade is flat in the area of the fuller, with the surfaces of the blade parallel, and is wedge shaped at the edge (the ridge being the border between the flat and the wedge areas) which would be a good indicator of Japanese origin.

True, the hilt is bent towards the edge but this can be easily done by adapting the mounting of the hilt to be his way. If you look at the hilt of this sword, it seems a little offset towards the back and is not following the line of the blade. This may be the resullt of the necessity to compensate for the differently shaped tang (as the Japanese tangs are slanted towards the back of the blade).

As with regards to the structure of the steel, that cerainly cannot be discerned unless the blade is polished and then metalographically examined.

[josh stout]

It can be difficult to interpret pictures. My guess is that the blade is relatively flat until the line identified as the medial ridge, and that the edge slopes from there. Pressing the blade flat against a table, looking to see if the edge is coming up at an angle or alternatively seeing if the edge is parallel with the table, would test this very easily.

The tang follows the curve of the handle to the peened end. It is not unusual for Chinese dao to have a handle offset toward the back of the blade like a kitchen knife.

To me, the fullers look like provincial work that was filed rather than chiseled, leaving two small grooves as evidence at the base of where the fullers come together. This does not seem like Japanese work, or work from a more refined area of sword manufacture in China.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by josh stout

It can be difficult to interpret pictures. My guess is that the blade is relatively flat until the line identified as the medial ridge, and that the edge slopes from there. Pressing the blade flat against a table, looking to see if the edge is coming up at an angle or alternatively seeing if the edge is parallel with the table, would test this very easily.

The tang follows the curve of the handle to the peened end. It is not unusual for Chinese dao to have a handle offset toward the back of the blade like a kitchen knife.

To me, the fullers look like provincial work that was filed rather than chiseled, leaving two small grooves as evidence at the base of where the fullers come together. This does not seem like Japanese work, or work from a more refined area of sword manufacture in China.

Quite possible.

But considering that we only have very few average photos available and that the condition of the sword is quite poor, we can only speculate whether it has a Japanese blade or not.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Quite possible.

But considering that we only have very few average photos available and that the condition of the sword is quite poor, we can only speculate whether it has a Japanese blade or not.

We can check the flexibility of the blade. If it's flexible, it is very sure not from Japan. Is it soft and easily to bend, it could come from Japan.
The reputation of japanese swords in western culture is much better than their value from the technical point of view, thanks to Hollywood. Very difficult to fight with, much more exigent than european swords, too soft and too slow. The european longsword or the Ottoman Kilij are worlds better than the famous Katana. The Europeans copied the Ottoman Kilij and Persian Shamshir but they never adopted the Katana.

As far as I know, the first japanese swords in the ~7th century were copys of chinese swords. The typical shape of a Katana is a chinese invention.

Roland

[ltp95002]

Here is an interesting and informative article on Japanese imported blades to Ming, China:
https://markussesko.com/2013/11/01/j...th-ming-china/

It estimated that over about a century, around 128.000 swords were imported based on official records.

As some of you aware, most of the weapons were destroyed over the last century, especially during the culture revolution period. Even if we can find these Japanese import now they would be extremely rare. However this type of blades are relatively easy to find in China's collector circle. This kind of confirms that these type of blades were mass produced locally as well. We have seen similar shaped blades in China, Korea and Vietnam. Unfortunately it is hard to find official records or studies that distinguish the difference between locally made blade and Japanese imported blade.

I have posted another blade. Please note that this was discovered in GuangXi region, and confirmed is a Chinese made blade. I cannot personally confirm this since it is still in China. It was originally purchased thinking it is a Japanese blade, but then later found it is not.

[Gustav]

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

We can check the flexibility of the blade. If it's flexible, it is very sure not from Japan. Is it soft and easily to bend, it could come from Japan.
The reputation of japanese swords in western culture is much better than their value from the technical point of view, thanks to Hollywood. Very difficult to fight with, much more exigent than european swords, too soft and too slow. The european longsword or the Ottoman Kilij are worlds better than the famous Katana. The Europeans copied the Ottoman Kilij and Persian Shamshir but they never adopted the Katana.

As far as I know, the first japanese swords in the ~7th century were copys of chinese swords. The typical shape of a Katana is a chinese invention.

Roland

Hey Roland,

Nice to hear from you!

I agree with some of your points but disagree with others.

It is true the reputation of Japanese Katana is significantly exagerated, however they are formidable weapons that can compete with the best European or otherwise blades and in most cases outperform them. It is only that they are particularly designed for a specific fighting style that may give the impression they are not as good as their competitors. More preciesely as they are relatively light and even more so with a very light tip (in comparison with the Dao), they are not suitable for hacking strokes. However, they perform exceptionally well with slashing strokes. I have even seen a documentary where a Katana was put to a test aginst an European Longsword (you may find it on YouTube, just type "katana vs longsword") and won in most of the particulat tests (like cutting or stabbing test, were it outperformed the European Longsword).

As with regards to the flexibility test you propose, that can be extremely misleading and dangerous as you can end up with a bent blade or injury without reaching any conclusion. I have about six Katanas and their flexibility varies significantly but within the normal expected range for a steel blade with the respective proportions. And this won't be by any discernable means significantly different from a san-mai Chinese sword of the same proportions.

True that early Japanese swords were copied from Chinese, and mostly from Korean swords, but then we can also say that European swords were also copied from... say Roman swords (with the European longsword being nothing but a longer wversion of a Roman Gladius and a bigger crossguard). However, Japanese swords are certainly a class of their own and definitely very diferent from the early Korean swords they were modelled after.

PS: Coming back to this sword, I believe that another point favourig the Japanese origin is its general shape with a fairly long and narrow blade and a rather thin and light tip. Chinese fighting style with the Dao is very much based on hacking strokes (hence the hilt bent towards the edge) that would require a heavier blade, with more of the weight distributed towards the tip.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hey Roland,

Nice to hear from you!

I agree with some of your points but disagree with others.

It is true the reputation of Japanese Katana is significantly exagerated, however they are formidable weapons that can compete with the best European or otherwise blades and in most cases outperform them. It is only that they are particularly designed for a specific fighting style that may give the impression they are not as good as their competitors. More preciesely as they are rather light and even more so with a very light tip, they are not suitable for hacking strokes. However, they perform exceptionally well with slashing strokes. I have even seen a documentary where a Katana was put to a test aginst an European Longsword (you may find it on YouTube, just type "katana vs longsword") and won in most of the particulat tests (like cutting or stabbing test, were it outperformed the European Longsword).

True that early Japanese swords were copied from Chinese, and mostly from Korean swords, but then we can also say that European swords were also copied from... say Roman swords.

Hi Marius,

also nice to hear from you!
I know the Video you mentioned. It was made with modern swords.

According to historical sources, the Japanese Samurai were pretty happy, when they found out, that their blades were of higher quality than portugese swords for example. But on the other hand, european raw steel was extremely sought after in ancient Nippon. Ancient Katana made from european raw steel have a pale blue shine, while Tamahagane is either black or dark blue, depending on the region.

I'm not just collecting swords, I also know a little about their usage. The balance of a typical early or war Katana (not the very light civil everyday Edo-Katana) is terrible. It took years until a Samurai was able to use his Katana in the right way. If one hits the target not exactly in a 90° angle, the sword will be bend. This is one reason, why it takes so long to master the Katana.

Japanes sword are extremely beautiful and aesthetic, but as a weapon I would compare it with the Starfighter plane (F-104), very fast but with a manouverability like a heavy truck full of gravel. Compared with a wootz Kilij it is like the Starfighter vs the SU35.



Best wishes,
Roland

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Hi Marius,

also nice to hear from you!
I know the Video you mentioned. It was made with modern swords.

According to historical sources, the Japanese Samurai were pretty happy, when they found out, that their blades were of higher quality than portugese swords for example. But on the other hand, european raw steel was extremely sought after in ancient Nippon. Ancient Katana made from european raw steel have a pale blue shine, while Tamahagane is either black or dark blue, depending on the region.

I'm not just collecting swords, I also know a little about their usage. The balance of a typical early or war Katana (not the very light civil everyday Edo-Katana) is terrible. It took years until a Samurai was able to use his Katana in the right way. If one hits the target not exactly in a 90° angle, the sword will be bend. This is one reason, why it takes so long to master the Katana.

Japanes sword are extremely beautiful and aesthetic, but as a weapon I would compare it with the Starfighter plane (F-104), very fast but with a manouverability like a heavy truck full of gravel. Compared with a wootz Kilij it is like the Starfighter vs the SU35.



Best wishes,
Roland

I agree... to disagree!

But that's the fun of it.