eBay keris... are these Kraton pieces?

[Alam Shah]

1) Antique Yogya Palace Guard Keris?

Labelled: Antique Yogya Palace Guard Keris w/ Silver Sheath kris
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=7413217886&id=

Excerpt: "Handle might be more recently added."

A yogya palace guard, sporting a Solonese hilt....hmmm?
Possibly a recently replaced hilt?

2) 19th Century Yogjakarta Keraton Keris?

Labelled: 19th C Yogya Keraton Keris kris dagger Java short swor
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=7413217864&id=

Excerpt: "It has a brass cover with the Yogjakarta Keraton (palace) logo."

Keraton logo on the pendok doesn't mean a keraton piece, right? I was told that pendok with keraton logo are readily available, for purchase.

As I'm new to keris, kindly guide me along. Are these keraton (palace) pieces?

[VVV]

Maybe it's "Keraton-style"?
At hotels you can also purchase a night in the President's Suite without being a President...

Michael

[nechesh]

hhhmmmm......

[doecon]

Thanks Alam for sharing

Since I’m the seller of these keris I try to give you some insight of what I know about the items.

a. The description of the Keris is accurate when it comes to age, material etc. So the first one mentioned is indeed with silver cover and both are indeed of the age mentioned (at least). I don’t see the point in deliberately misleading people, as you might see in other auctions. You can clearly see from the pictures that these pendok are old, and they are indeed.

b. Origin or makers information isn’t always available, so I stick with what I have. Both keris came from Yogja and where described as such. The silver pendok could have been from Solo, but fortunately I have a Pedang Sabet with similar silver carved scabbard, coming from Yogja as well. Therefore it became Yogja.

c. Regarding the handle. My blades are being sold as is. Meaning that I kept all as much as original. A Yogja keris with solo hilt is not uncommon, some of my java blades even came with madura hilts. Since blades obviously survive longer, it isn’t so strange to find these combinations. (and I’m sure you are aware of that)

d. The title contains the word Keraton, but the description itself points in what way its used. I think it’s very clear.

I’m seriously scaling down a large part of the blades I have. eBay is a usefull channel to share my items with others. Since these are nice keris, I’m very sure the new owners of these blades are happy as well. (just check the ending prices).

[Alam Shah]

Hi doecon,

Thank you for responding. What I meant was (and still is), for the 1st piece was it owned by a palace guard? And for the 2nd piece, was it a keraton commissioned piece, or ever used at the keraton?

My response to your comments:
a) Material-wise, I guess it's specified adequately...

b) So, it's more of assumption, is it?

c) "Therefore it became Yogja." you mean attribution can be changed from Solo to Yogya? For the Solo hilt, for common keris use, perhaps. But for palace guard or keraton piece, why would a Solo hilt be used?

d) Are you implying that pieces which have the keraton word or insignia, are keraton pieces?

If the provenance is not true or based solely on assumptions, then it should be stated otherwise. When an absolute term is used when it's only an assumption, wouldn't it be misleading?

[doecon]

Ok Alam, I will try to answer;

a) Yes, agreed

b) Yes, it can be called an assumption. If I would know where Wuryadara Karyapa lived it wouldn’t be (see name description on the back).

c) Was b) see before. And yes the description mentioned that the handle was probably added later. Now idea why a solo style hilt was used.

d) I’m not implying anything. The title mentioned the word Keraton, the description explains why. Of course I’m not assuming that all keris dressed in pendok with keraton insigne are actually being Keraton keris. I don’t see I said anything like that ? However, regarding older pendok (1800’s with fine silver carving work in this case) I think its save to believe that there is a link between the holder of the keris and the Keraton.

In case a seller gives wrong information with the purpose of increasing the “value” of his items, I would call it misleading (please do compare our descriptions with others).

I’m being pretty much straightforward about my blades, I don’t lie about age or material used. So if something is old we will add that, if something is new or recent, you will clearly see that in the descriptions. On top of that I try to put as many pictures as possible, so everybody can see for themselves.

Regarding origin and provenance we can’t always be sure. For most blades complete information about former owners is missing, simply unknown or unclear. In my opinion it can not be called “misleading” in case you try to fill in some information about the items history.

[Alam Shah]

Hi doecon,

No issues with a) .

b) Yes, it can be called an assumption. If I would know where Wuryadara Karyapa lived it wouldn’t be (see name description on the back).

Until it becomes a fact, it still remains an assumption, right?

c) Was b) see before. And yes the description mentioned that the handle was probably added later. Now idea why a solo style hilt was used.

That is what I was wondering. Just a thought.

d) I’m not implying anything. The title mentioned the word Keraton, the description explains why.

Generally, that would give hints suggesting that it is? But not possibly pointing that it may not be?

Of course I’m not assuming that all keris dressed in pendok with keraton insigne are actually being Keraton keris. I don’t see I said anything like that ?

Oppss! That would be an assumption on my part. Sorry.

However, regarding older pendok (1800’s with fine silver carving work in this case) I think its save to believe that there is a link between the holder of the keris and the Keraton.

This is an assumption, right?

In case a seller gives wrong information with the purpose of increasing the “value” of his items, I would call it misleading (please do compare our descriptions with others).

I'm not implying that your information is wrong? Correct me if I'm wrong. As a seller, your integrity is at stake, when you present an opinion/assumption as fact.

I’m being pretty much straightforward about my blades, I don’t lie about age or material used. So if something is old we will add that, if something is new or recent, you will clearly see that in the descriptions.

Age is still assumptions, so its still subjective. How can one be so certain about this. Probable age is one thing, being so certain of the age is another.

On top of that I try to put as many pictures as possible, so everybody can see for themselves.

Pictures on eBay is like a myopic person looking without their glasses. Another words the quality is often bad without clear zoom functions or hi-res pictures.

Regarding origin and provenance we can’t always be sure. For most blades complete information about former owners is missing, simply unknown or unclear. In my opinion it can not be called “misleading” in case you try to fill in some information about the items history.

Actually, I'm being specific with these 2 examples and not your entire lot. What I'm asking is still, are these Keraton or Palace Guard pieces.

Thank you for responding.

[Pangeran Datu]

Bottom line is: Caveat Emptor

With regard to kerises, it depends on how much of a purist and/or traditionalist you are. Given the history of Solo/Surakarta and Yogayakarta, starting from the 'split', a purist steeped in tradition would never mix the two.

Madura hilts on kerises from other areas may be due to:
- Madurese were often used as soldiers in Java and other areas
- Large Madurese communities settled in areas outside Madura
- A lot of people consider Madurese hilts. like Palembang hilts and Bugis hilts to be the best in the region.

Unless you personally have the wherewithal, it's safer to rely on people you have come to trust or their referrals.

Regards.

[Pangeran Datu]

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

Bottom line is: Caveat Emptor

Madura hilts on kerises from other areas may be due to:
- Madurese were often used as soldiers in Java and other areas
- Large Madurese communities settled in areas outside Madura
- A lot of people consider Madurese hilts. like Palembang hilts and Bugis hilts to be the best in the region.

Regards.

Whoops!... My humblest apologies... That's what becomes of trying to multi-task on emails.
The bit on Madura hilts shouldn't have been included
Once again, my apologies.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

Bottom line is: Caveat Emptor

With regard to kerises, it depends on how much of a purist and/or traditionalist you are. Given the history of Solo/Surakarta and Yogayakarta, starting from the 'split', a purist steeped in tradition would never mix the two.

Hi Pangeran Datu,
Agreed, afaik. Caveat Emptor is normally the approach. But that still does not answer the question: Are these Keraton or Palace Guard pieces?
What is your opinion Pangeran?

Unless you personally have the wherewithal, it's safer to rely on people you have come to trust or their referrals.

True, but there are instances where buyers were taken in by their 'so-called' friends (reference to previous threads here). Most of us had come to the consensus that the best way is, to arm yourself adequately with the necessary knowledge to make an informed decision.

[doecon]

Pangeran, thanks. actually the quote about madura hilts was intresting as well

Alam, Answering the question whether the keris are used in the keraton or not, would probably add another assumption to your list. I think the description itself is pretty clear already.

And of course everthing which is not a known fact is an assumption, some assumptions are however more acurate then others.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by doecon

Alam, Answering the question whether the keris are used in the keraton or not, would probably add another assumption to your list. I think the description itself is pretty clear already.

And of course everthing which is not a known fact is an assumption, some assumptions are however more acurate then others.

Hi doecon,
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Therefore, what you're saying is that, these are Yogyakarta's Keraton and Palace Guard pieces... Hmmm, interesting.

[nechesh]

Doecon, when a seller puts a tag line like "Keraton Keris" in the title of their auction they are implying, plain and simple, that the keris in question is a Keraton keris. It is the first thing the potential buyer sees and it sticks in the mind, regardless of all the side-stepping one might do in the description to cover ones rear-end. It is a sales promotion meant to entice and possibly misled, just like another recent auction i saw with the title of" Keris With a Ghost". Can we please stop the game of semantics here?
Things like age and origin will always be a matter of speculation with keris and barring definite provenence are best left unclaimed. If you state it you are claiming it could be which is something that you can never prove so why say it?
So, if this were a Monty Python comedy sketch your best move would be just to say, "It's a fair cop" and move on.

[Satria]

For keris collector, "keraton keris" is perfect keris because of having the history. And keris lover will not sell "keraton keris" will start on a buck.
Keris lover will not get a piece of " keraton keris " with US$1000 ...that is for real.

Fisically.."pamengkang jagad" is "handicaped" keris. Keris maker will sell "pamengkang jagad" pieces with very cheap price because this piece is unsuccess and unperfect keris....but usually the seller make story about this pieces just for rising the value.

So, is it posible that "kraton keris" is unsuccess and unperfect keris ???

[doecon]

Mwhahaha Yep, after the "handicaped" keris remark, I got indeed some inspiration for making new titles, thanks so much.

Satria, I fully understand your concern. But I will continue adding keris for a buck, bidders and buyers dont mind. Its probably the other sellers that are a bit puzzled...Right?

Nechesh, I partly agree. But In my opinion titles are simply titles. They are ment to attract the attention. "Keris with Ghost" obviously did, although the description explains the title. Same counts for Keraton Keris, the description explains what is the point. I think VVV already came to the right conclusion before, you can also sleep in a "presidential suite" without being elected

Alam, ...?

Lets move on again. I'm sure there is enough inspiration for further critizism.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by doecon

Mwhahaha Yep, after the "handicaped" keris remark, I got indeed some inspiration for making new titles, thanks so much.

Satria, I fully understand your concern. But I will continue adding keris for a buck, bidders and buyers dont mind. Its probably the other sellers that are a bit puzzled...Right?

Nechesh, I partly agree. But In my opinion titles are simply titles. They are ment to attract the attention. "Keris with Ghost" obviously did, although the description explains the title. Same counts for Keraton Keris, the description explains what is the point. I think VVV already came to the right conclusion before, you can also sleep in a "presidential suite" without being elected

Alam, ...?

Lets move on again. I'm sure there is enough inspiration for further critizism.

I think the concern here may also be how this reflects on the Forum seeing as they are also listed in Swap .

However Caveat Emptor is the byword in any sales venue .

[doecon]

Omnes viae eBay ducunt

[Rick]

My concern remains doecon .

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by doecon

Omnes viae eBay ducunt

Translated from Latin = "All roads lead to eBay." What does it means?

I think VVV already came to the right conclusion before, you can also sleep in a "presidential suite" without being elected

It's not a Keraton piece, then. I think I've got my answer. Thank you doecon for your participation and explanation.

[Andrew]

Thank you, gentlemen, for keeping this thread civil.

I think this one has achieved critical mass. Let's move on.

[VANDOO]

I AM NOT WELL INFORMED ENOUGH TO SAY WHERE THE KERIS CAME FROM OR HOW OLD THEY ARE. I CAN SAY HOWEVER THAT I THINK THE PRICE THEY BROUGHT WAS NOT OUT OF REASON AND PERHAPS LOW, THEY CERTENALY DIDN'T GET TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF.

IN MY TRAVELS I HAVE OFTEN FOUND PEOPLE IN ALL KINDS OF POSITIONS MOONLIGHTING SELLING ANTIQUES, COINS,WATCHES, ECT. I HAVE BOUGHT FROM OR BEEN LED TO SELLERS BY GAURDS, MUSEUM EMPLOYEES,TAXI DRIVERS,HOTEL EMPLOYEES, RESTURANT EMPLOYEES AND STREET HUSTLERS. OFTEN THEY LEAD YOU TO A BUNCH OF POORLY MADE OR FAKE STUFF BUT IT IS ALWAYS AN ADVENTURE AND SOMETIMES PAYS OFF. JUST DON'T TAKE ANYTHING ALONG WITH YOU THAT YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE.
PERSONALLY I LIKE TO KEEP THE STORY THAT OFTEN COMES WITH A PIECE EVEN IF IT IS BOGUS AND A RECORD OF HOW I AQUIRED IT

I WOULD BE MUCH MORE CAUTIOUS ON GOING ON THESE KIND OF EXCURSIONS THESE DAYS DUE TO CERTIAN GROUPS LOOKING TO KILL OR HARM FORIGNERS. ON MY LAST TRIP TO BALI THERE WAS A GROUP NOT FROM BALI HANGING AROUND WITH A VAN AND THEY TRIED TO GET ME TO GO WITH THEM TO SEE BALI SEVERAL TIMES. I NEVER SAW THEM ASK LOCALS OR DO ANY WORK BUT THEY WERE OFTEN THERE AND THOUGH THEY SMILED AND SPOKE ENGLISH THERE WAS A BAD FEELING AROUND THEM. IT WAS NOT LONG AFTER I WAS THERE THAT A CLUB I HAD BEEN TO WAS BOMBED. CON MEN, CON, THIEVES STEAL BUT ALL THESE GUYS DO IS MURDER SO DO BE CAREFUL WHEN YOU TRAVEL.

IT IS NOT UNLIKELY THAT A SECURITY PERSON OR OTHER EMPLOYEE AT A MUSEM OR PALACE MIGHT MAKE USE OF HIS ASSOCIATION TO SELL SOME KERIS FOR A BIT MORE THAN IT WOULD USUALLY GO FOR. EVEN IF THIS BIT OF INFORMATION IS INCLUDED ONE SHOULD KNOW THAT IT IS EXTREMELY UNLIKELY THAT IT BELONGED TO A PERSON OF IMPORTANCE IN THE PAST. THAT IS ESPECIALLY EVIDENT WHEN YOU SEE A LOW OPENING PRICE ON A PLACE LIKE EBAY.

SO I SEE NOTHING WRONG WITH MENTIONING WHERE IT WAS AQUIRED WITHOUT CLAIMING IT IS A ROYAL PUSAKA. IT DOSEN'T CAUSE ME TO PAY MORE FOR IT AS I ONLY BUY WHAT I LIKE REGARDLESS OF WHO OWNED IT OR WHERE IT CAME FROM. I AM NOT A KING SO WHY SHOULD I SEEK TO OWN THE BELONGINGS OF ONE UNLESS I LIKE IT, BUT THEN I AM ALSO NOT A DEALER LOOKING TO RESELL

IT IS NOT MY INTENTION TO THROW GAS ON A POTENTIAL FIRE, I JUST TRY TO EXPLAIN HOW I SEE IT. I ADD A CAUTION BECAUSE I ALWAYS LOVED ADVENTURE IN MY YOUTH AND FORTUNATELY SURVIVED MANY RISKY ACTS BUT THINGS HAVE CHANGED IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD SINCE THEN SO DON'T LET THE URGE FOR ADVENTURE EVEN IN PARADISE PUT YOU IN DANGER.
IF THE MODERATIORS SEE ANYTHING I HAVE SAID TO BE A PROBLEM PLEASE FEEL FREE TO EDIT OR DELETE.

[Pangeran Datu]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hi Pangeran Datu,
Agreed, afaik. Caveat Emptor is normally the approach. But that still does not answer the question: Are these Keraton or Palace Guard pieces?
What is your opinion Pangeran?

Hi Alam Shah.
I picked you for someone with a penchant for Malay/Sumatra/Bugis kerises.
How come so much interest in these pieces? Anyway to answer your question:

- WRT both kerises, I gave them the once-over and dismissed them with a quiet chuckle, thinking, SOMEONE is SURE to buy them.
- WRT 1st piece: I believe that Pamengkang Jagad occurs because at some stage of the manufacturing process, the temperature wasn't high enough, thus not allowing some sections between iron and pamor layers to meld properly. The through crack is because there is no steel core. Connoisseurs as well as the keraton class generally consider this type of keris as being defective. However, it is apparently popular among newcomers and in Malaysia.(See also Satria's comments, above)
- WRT 2nd piece: The only Keraton Yogya kerises I have seen with pendok, have been those made of precious metal and/or inlayed with stones. The pendok is usually not merely used as a sheath protector, but also as a display of wealth/status/power.

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

True, but there are instances where buyers were taken in by their 'so-called' friends (reference to previous threads here). Most of us had come to the consensus that the best way is, to arm yourself adequately with the necessary knowledge to make an informed decision.

I'm sorry, I didn't elaborate.
It was presumptious of me to assume that all enthusiasts will always research/brush up on something, to the best of their ability, before seeking outside help. But, there is a limit to how much one can absorb and understand ( especially by oneself). Of course, the final decision is yours and it should be the best-informed one you can muster.

Regards.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

Hi Alam Shah.
I picked you for someone with a penchant for Malay/Sumatra/Bugis kerises.

Hi Pangeran Datu,
If you had seen my tiny collection, what you mentioned above is the bulk of it. Although, I have a few javanese pieces and others as well.

How come so much interest in these pieces?

My knowledge in Javanese pieces is limited. The Keraton pieces I've seen are only in books. Furthermore, doecon is a member of this forum, hence the question.

- WRT 1st piece: I believe that Pamengkang Jagad occurs because at some stage of the manufacturing process, the temperature wasn't high enough, thus not allowing some sections between iron and pamor layers to meld properly. The through crack is because there is no steel core. Connoisseurs as well as the keraton class generally consider this type of keris as being defective. However, it is apparently popular among newcomers and in Malaysia.(See also Satria's comments, above)

Your answer on Pamengkang Jagad, (a direct translation from Ensiklopedi Keris, pg:332), is appreciated. Afaik, those interested in Malaysia and Singapore are mainly for its esoteric values.

- WRT 2nd piece: The only Keraton Yogya kerises I have seen with pendok, have been those made of precious metal and/or inlayed with stones. The pendok is usually not merely used as a sheath protector, but also as a display of wealth/status/power.

Yes, the ones that I've seen are adorned pieces as well.

I'm sorry, I didn't elaborate.
It was presumptious of me to assume that all enthusiasts will always research/brush up on something, to the best of their ability, before seeking outside help. But, there is a limit to how much one can absorb and understand ( especially by oneself). Of course, the final decision is yours and it should be the best-informed one you can muster.

Thank you for elaborating.

[Pangeran Datu]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hi Pangeran Datu,
If you had seen my tiny collection, what you mentioned above is the bulk of it. Although, I have a few javanese pieces and others as well.

No, I haven't seen your collection. Is it available for viewing somewhere? Regarding what I said about your penchant, I just drew a long bow, based on your nick, avatar and location

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Thank you for elaborating.

YW Glad to be of any assistance.
I think the indos refer to it as: Gotong Royong

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

No, I haven't seen your collection. Is it available for viewing somewhere? Regarding what I said about your penchant, I just drew a long bow, based on your nick, avatar and location

I see.

YW Glad to be of any assistance.
I think the indos refer to it as: Gotong Royong.

Yes it is, "the spirit of sharing". "Gotong Royong" is also a Malay term.

[BluErf]

In my opinion, there are indeed many kerises out there (I'm not referring to the kerises in discussion in this thread) that are being offered as kraton pieces. Whether they are real or not needs careful discernment, and sometimes a leap of faith.

I have some questions which I hope can be answered:

1. Are kraton kerises referring to the royal pusaka, or simply any keris that may be used/worn by a person working in the kraton, including the guards?

2. Must kraton kerises necessarily come out of the kraton armoury, or is it a reference to a certain level of quality?

3. Are kraton kerises made by empus, or could they have been kerises owned by founding sultans/sunans of the kraton, which may not have been made by an empu?

4. Can kraton pieces be 'inducted'? i.e. purchased from somebody and added to the armoury? If so, how long must it be inside the kraton to be considered a kraton piece?

5. "Rejected" kerises made by empu associated to a kraton - are these kraton pieces?

And also, just to share - there is a book published by the Yogya kraton. It has good pictures of the principal keris attributed to the Sultan, the crown prince, the Eldest son and the chief minister. The Sultan's own keris is a rather 'unspectacular' straight keris with a little bit of kinatah work and a combong. And I have seen the keris blade of the super gold Bugis keris on the cover of "Court Arts of Indonesia". That is a "normal-looking" 7-waved Bugis blade. No doubt a good tough blade with good form, but nothing fancy that we would imagine.

So what does it mean to be a kraton piece? And what are the conceptions that we have of the way a kraton piece must look?

[Alam Shah]

Hmm...interesting question BluErf. What's the title of the book?

Unfortunately, I don't have the answers. Perhaps someone like Boedhi Adhitya, Marto Suwignyo or perhap A.G. Maisey would be able to assist or answer these questions.

[Pangeran Datu]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hmm...interesting question BluErf. What's the title of the book?

Unfortunately, I don't have the answers. Perhaps someone like Boedhi Adhitya, Marto Suwignyo or perhap A.G. Maisey would be able to assist or answer these questions.

Hello again Alam shah,
How long is a piece of string? ...
Take your pick... the definition of a kraton piece depends on whom you speak to. It can mean pieces owned by previous and current rulers..... it can mean pieces owned by previous and current kraton personnel......it can mean pieces commissioned by the ruler or kraton....In any case, I'd be surprised if they weren't made by an Empu instead of a panday ( here I make a distinction between Empu and panday, as many people in Java do). As well, it can mean just normal pieces.. or it can mean pieces with tuah or pusakas.... Or any combination of the above and more
In my opinion, the Holy Grail is the pusaka tuah that have traditionally been thrown away or given away for safe-keeping by forebears, prior to their demise.Believe me, they DO exist
Ko nie bijak laa.

[Sepang]

MANY SELLER NEED TO GET PROFIT BY TELLING NOT TRUE.
SAID THAT A KRIS WHICH THEY OFFERED IS CAME FROM ROYAL PALACE, BUT ACTUALLY NOT
JUST BECAUSE THE PENDOK WHICH USED HAS ROYAL SYMBOL THAN IT CAN SAID AS ROYAL KRISS ?
..............
WE KNEW EACH OTHER ABOUT TRICK LIKE THIS HUH ? DID YOU, DEOCON ?

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

In my opinion, the Holy Grail is the pusaka tuah that have traditionally been thrown away or given away for safe-keeping by forebears, prior to their demise.

Obviously you have not read or seen the Da Vinci Code.