Daarb Song Muah??? Question for the Dhafia and Co.

Nathaniel · 12th March 2009, 04:59 AM

I was just thinking...in Thai sword fighting Krabi Krabong and also in thai history, eg famous thai swordsman, Phraya Pichai you see two sword handed fighting...but I have yet to seen any antique daarb pairs?!?...and wonder how really common it was?

I can think of a few examples with other cultures where they have fought with two blades...European...Miyamoto Musashi but I haven't seen anything about Lao, Cambodian or Burmese fighting with a double pair of swords.

Any thoughts or comments?

KuKulzA28 · 12th March 2009, 10:38 PM

From the little I know, it seems dual-weilding wasn't all that common, but you can find it in Spanish and Filipino Espada y Daga. Also in India where a hero was said to have used a pata in each hand to carve a way through his enemies. Chinese seem to have a trend in dual swords with the fame of butterfly-blades and dual sabers.

I don't doubt that some Chinese martial concepts filtered down into SE Asia, just as Indian martial arts did... perhaps the Thai did have some dual sword methods... I know in the martial arts Krabi-krabong they DO train dual sticks... I don't doubt that those could be training sword movements.

However I don't know if they carried their swords together or in separate sheaths, I'd guess the latter.

EDIT: This link here may interest you...

Mark · 16th March 2009, 04:03 PM

Both Thai and Bama (Thaing/Banshay) martial arts have duel-wield forms. Here is a video with Banshay double-sword forms (minutes 2:57 and 4:29).

I have not found a matched pair of dha shay/daab, however I have seen matched pairs of dha hmyaung (daggers). My guess is that over the years the sword sets on the market have just gotten broken up, which is a pity. In Thai tradition pairs of daab are worn crossed on the back. I've wondered how a Bama would carry two dha shay, as the traditional way is by a loop over the shoulder, which would be a rather awkward way to carry a pair.

wilked aka Khun Deng · 17th March 2009, 05:54 AM

Nathaniel,
Just a few pictures to illustrate what Mark said. I have seen antique matched pairs at both the Armory in the Grand Palace and one especially nice set for sale at the River City Antique Mall (however they wanted the equivalent of $10,000). Just an assumption but I don't believe matched pairs were a common element in Darb Song Muah, you trained with what you had and most Armories that supplied weapons to the masses for battle were fairly equivalent in size and balance. Rather those matched sets were probably reserved for those of a special guard or for those of status.

Dan

KuKulzA28 · 17th March 2009, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilked aka Khun Deng

Nathaniel,
[....] Just an assumption but I don't believe matched pairs were a common element in Darb Song Muah, you trained with what you had and most Armories that supplied weapons to the masses for battle were fairly equivalent in size and balance. Rather those matched sets were probably reserved for those of a special guard or for those of status.

Dan

Good point. Vikings were known for their axes and swords, but the spear was one of their main weapons. The Chinese had sabers and jian, but the spear was the main battlefield weapon. The Moros and other Filipinos had a wide array of sandata... but the spear was one of the most used weapons... you used what you had, and often a sword wasn't available for the common trooper

If you had one it was an heirloom or one from a local armory/depot... in which case you used what was given to you (by father or leader).

I don't know how it was for the Thai, did all families have a darb? Somehow I doubt it...

fearn · 17th March 2009, 06:40 AM

Hi All,

One other thing about double blades is, to state the obvious, they are both blades, and they are both same length.

Why does this matter? Shields tend to be cheaper than swords, and they cover more than a sword does. As such, they're better for defense than a second sword. If necessary, they can be torn to bits defending their wielder. That's why lots of people use shields, especially when they can only afford one good sword.

Thing about paired long weapons of the same length is that they tend to get in each other's way. There are three solutions for this. One is to get really, really good, like Musashi. A second is to use shorter blades, which is what many paired weapons practices (in China, Europe, Japan, and SE Asia) do. Of course, this means you've surrendered the range advantage to your opponent. A third solution is to use a long/short blade combo, which was done in the Philippines, Europe, and China. Oh yeah, I think Musashi did it as well.

Anyway, double weapons have some notable weaknesses, which is why double blades aren't common. The warriors who use them tend to be somewhat better than average.

The weird thing actually is that the Dao isn't used with a shield very often. Wonder why?

Best,

F

Mark · 18th March 2009, 02:48 PM

Hey, Dan! Good to see you posting again.

wilked aka Khun Deng · 19th March 2009, 04:08 AM

Good to be back. Not to high jack Nathaniel's thread but with being deployed moving to Hawaii and trying to finish my Masters .... I did however get my entire collection out of Japan and the mainland and get it all in one place finally. I'll have a few items up soon (no dha though)

RhysMichael · 20th March 2009, 10:24 PM

Hi dan I hope all goes well great to see you again

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi All,

One other thing about double blades is, to state the obvious, they are both blades, and they are both same length.

Why does this matter? Shields tend to be cheaper than swords, and they cover more than a sword does. As such, they're better for defense than a second sword. If necessary, they can be torn to bits defending their wielder. That's why lots of people use shields, especially when they can only afford one good sword.

Thing about paired long weapons of the same length is that they tend to get in each other's way. There are three solutions for this. One is to get really, really good, like Musashi. A second is to use shorter blades, which is what many paired weapons practices (in China, Europe, Japan, and SE Asia) do. Of course, this means you've surrendered the range advantage to your opponent. A third solution is to use a long/short blade combo, which was done in the Philippines, Europe, and China. Oh yeah, I think Musashi did it as well.

Anyway, double weapons have some notable weaknesses, which is why double blades aren't common. The warriors who use them tend to be somewhat better than average.

The weird thing actually is that the Dao isn't used with a shield very often. Wonder why?

Best,

F

Actually Phillipine arts use weapons of different length but also 2 weapons of the same length such as double espada and double baston. Yes it is more common to see espada y daga There are a number of other styles that also use double blades. Burmese Thaing, Krabi Krabong ( daab song muu ) both already mentioned , Chinese had dual jian and dual dao some long some shorter , Pencak Silat has double blade forms, in WMA there was a case ( or brace) of rapier using dual rapiers as well as sword and dagger forms ( Manciolino (1531), Marozzo (1536), Agrippa (1553), di Grassi (1570) ) , as mentiond above there seems to have been some use of double falchions, some sources speak of indonesian forms with dual peudeung on Aceh. Kuk Sool won has dual blade techniques ( Sang Kum or on horse Ma Sang Sang Kum), Musashi's treatise on it has been mentioned above. I am sure there are others that do not come to mind but there are many historical examples of dual swords.

Though the argument about double blades/sword and shield/sword and axe will go on long beyaond our lifespan and I will admit dual sword forms were probably not the norm nor used by conscripts who were farmers oneday and fighters the next. The pike and spear were probably the weeapon of conscripts. And I belief the dha was often used with a shield but the sields were of rattan and wood so mot as many survived as we collectors would wish

As to the original question of how common daab song muu was I do not know that we will ever know. With chinese double blades the blades themselfs and thier furniture were crafted to fit two blades in one scabbard. With daab song muu they are in separate scabbards. Because of this the swords could be used as paired blades by one generation and then passed down to the next where they might be used as single blades possibly by two different people. I like to think that when I see two identical dha with definite age to them ( which does happen some) that they may have been used daab song muu but I could just as easily be letting romaticism tint my judgement

As to there being difficulty using two weapons and the need for more training I agree completely with that and leave the words of DiGrassi about a case of rapiers

There are also used now adays, aswell in the schools, as in
the lists, two Swords or Rapiers, admitted, and approved
both of Princes, and of the professors of this art, for
honorable and knightly weapons, albeit they be not used in
the wars. Wherefore I shall not vary from my purpose, if I
reason also of these, as far as is agreeable to true art. To
him that would handle these weapons, it is necessary that he
can aswell manage the left hand as the right, which thing
shalbe (if not necessary) yet most profitable in every other
kind of weapon. But in these principally he is to resolve
himself, that he can do no good, without that kind of
nimbleness and dexterity. For seeing they are two weapons,
and yet of one self same kind, they ought equally and
indifferently to be handled, the one performing that which
the other does, and every of them being apt aswell to strike
as defend. And therefore a man ought to accustom his body,
arms and hands aswell to strike as defend. And he which is
not much practiced and exercised therein, ought not to
make profession of this Art: for he shall find himself to be
utterly deceived.

Nathaniel · 21st March 2009, 06:33 PM

Great! Last time I checked on the thread there was only one reply! Thanks to everyone for contributing their thoughts, and knowledge! Good points about the spears...less metal, quicker to make and the same with shields. Swords of different length is a good point with Phraya Prichai....and similar double bladed traditions European, Phillipine, Korean, malay and Chinese.

Nice quote from DiGrassi, Michael. Thanks for sharing all. I hope people keep it going.

12th March 2009, 04:59 AM	#1
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Daarb Song Muah??? Question for the Dhafia and Co. I was just thinking...in Thai sword fighting Krabi Krabong and also in thai history, eg famous thai swordsman, Phraya Pichai you see two sword handed fighting...but I have yet to seen any antique daarb pairs?!?...and wonder how really common it was? I can think of a few examples with other cultures where they have fought with two blades...European...Miyamoto Musashi but I haven't seen anything about Lao, Cambodian or Burmese fighting with a double pair of swords. Any thoughts or comments?

17th March 2009, 05:54 AM	#4
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Nathaniel, Just a few pictures to illustrate what Mark said. I have seen antique matched pairs at both the Armory in the Grand Palace and one especially nice set for sale at the River City Antique Mall (however they wanted the equivalent of $10,000). Just an assumption but I don't believe matched pairs were a common element in Darb Song Muah, you trained with what you had and most Armories that supplied weapons to the masses for battle were fairly equivalent in size and balance. Rather those matched sets were probably reserved for those of a special guard or for those of status. Dan Attached Images

12th March 2009, 10:38 PM	#2
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	From the little I know, it seems dual-weilding wasn't all that common, but you can find it in Spanish and Filipino Espada y Daga. Also in India where a hero was said to have used a pata in each hand to carve a way through his enemies. Chinese seem to have a trend in dual swords with the fame of butterfly-blades and dual sabers. I don't doubt that some Chinese martial concepts filtered down into SE Asia, just as Indian martial arts did... perhaps the Thai did have some dual sword methods... I know in the martial arts Krabi-krabong they DO train dual sticks... I don't doubt that those could be training sword movements. However I don't know if they carried their swords together or in separate sheaths, I'd guess the latter. EDIT: This link here may interest you...

16th March 2009, 04:03 PM	#3
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Both Thai and Bama (Thaing/Banshay) martial arts have duel-wield forms. Here is a video with Banshay double-sword forms (minutes 2:57 and 4:29). I have not found a matched pair of dha shay/daab, however I have seen matched pairs of dha hmyaung (daggers). My guess is that over the years the sword sets on the market have just gotten broken up, which is a pity. In Thai tradition pairs of daab are worn crossed on the back. I've wondered how a Bama would carry two dha shay, as the traditional way is by a loop over the shoulder, which would be a rather awkward way to carry a pair.

17th March 2009, 06:40 AM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi All, One other thing about double blades is, to state the obvious, they are both blades, and they are both same length. Why does this matter? Shields tend to be cheaper than swords, and they cover more than a sword does. As such, they're better for defense than a second sword. If necessary, they can be torn to bits defending their wielder. That's why lots of people use shields, especially when they can only afford one good sword. Thing about paired long weapons of the same length is that they tend to get in each other's way. There are three solutions for this. One is to get really, really good, like Musashi. A second is to use shorter blades, which is what many paired weapons practices (in China, Europe, Japan, and SE Asia) do. Of course, this means you've surrendered the range advantage to your opponent. A third solution is to use a long/short blade combo, which was done in the Philippines, Europe, and China. Oh yeah, I think Musashi did it as well. Anyway, double weapons have some notable weaknesses, which is why double blades aren't common. The warriors who use them tend to be somewhat better than average. The weird thing actually is that the Dao isn't used with a shield very often. Wonder why? Best, F

18th March 2009, 02:48 PM	#7
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Hey, Dan! Good to see you posting again.

19th March 2009, 04:08 AM	#8
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Good to be back. Not to high jack Nathaniel's thread but with being deployed moving to Hawaii and trying to finish my Masters .... I did however get my entire collection out of Japan and the mainland and get it all in one place finally. I'll have a few items up soon (no dha though)

21st March 2009, 06:33 PM	#10
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Great! Last time I checked on the thread there was only one reply! Thanks to everyone for contributing their thoughts, and knowledge! Good points about the spears...less metal, quicker to make and the same with shields. Swords of different length is a good point with Phraya Prichai....and similar double bladed traditions European, Phillipine, Korean, malay and Chinese. Nice quote from DiGrassi, Michael. Thanks for sharing all. I hope people keep it going.