New Kard... extremely unique.

Montino Bourbon · 22nd December 2012, 04:00 PM

I'm in Jaipur, where I'm visiting for a month and a half. I was here last January, and I've already told the story of how I went into a large store and was finally admitted to the "back room", after performing a song and dance to convince the salesman that I knew that he was trying to pass off something new as something old, because it had been rubbed in the dirt a little.
At the time, there was a large kard that I had seen, but I could not afford. I was very impressed by the blade profile, which was one of only two fully hollow ground kards that I've ever seen. Returning to Jaipur for a month and a half, I had my driver take me to that store again. The gentleman in question took me to the back room, where I admired the kard that I am talking about. Even though it had been sanded with some very, very rough sandpaper, I loved everything about this knife. I ended up buying it, taking it back to the hotel, and working it over with some very fine crocus cloth, taking hours to try and ameliorate the condition of the blade so that I could etch it. I have not yet etched it, but I suspect that it's wootz. this is only the second kard I've ever seen that has this kind of hollow ground blade rather than a T back blade. I would like to ask all of you if you know of any others like this; most of them are either hollow flat with the T-back blade or more or less triangular. Any opinions?

TribalBlades · 22nd December 2012, 04:48 PM

hi there. i am sorry to be so insensitive, however what is it that people see in these kind of knives??? they sort of resemble butter knives, though the blade is quite good.

i saw one sell for around $1000 , if i remember correctly. so what is so special about them?

A.alnakkas · 23rd December 2012, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TribalBlades

hi there. i am sorry to be so insensitive, however what is it that people see in these kind of knives??? they sort of resemble butter knives, though the blade is quite good.

i saw one sell for around $1000 , if i remember correctly. so what is so special about them?

I once asked a similar question to myself regarding some philipino military knife.. But then I realised those who collect them do so out of their own taste and alot of historic motivation :-)

Nice knife, give it an etch!

Montino Bourbon · 23rd December 2012, 03:54 AM

Dear friends;

I'm always amused at what people collect and why. For me, the knife is one of the most basic tools. It has morphed into so many different forms all over the world, some more and some less functional, some highly ceremonial, and some very formalized. The bow and arrow is a standoff weapon; when you get to the sword and shield you're already getting closer to the person. The knife or the dagger is the closest item of defense. In fact, it's so close and personal that even in the court of the emperor people were allowed to retain their knives, even when they had to put their swords into safekeeping. Daggers were highly ornamented and cherished, and were very personal possessions.

I didn't set out to collect knives with a particular idea or style in mind, I would just run across things that I liked, and so my "collection" is pretty eclectic. I have a really nice Jambiya with a rhino horn handle that my sister got me when she was in Yemen. I have a few Keris, some more and some less valuable. I have various other daggers.

Of all the blade weapons that I have seen, I like the kard a lot. In some ways, I am a functionalist, and so I like a knife that is really A KNIFE, if you know what I mean. I like a knife that you can use to cut meat, to cut string, or to defend yourself. You know when Crocodile Dundee pulls out his knife and says "that ain't a Noife, THIS is a noife!" That's kind of the attitude that I'm talking about.

When I look at a kard, what I think is "knife". The blade of the kard has not become formalized at all, except to be better for stabbing. It's very much still a knife. A jambiya can be used to cut rope if it's absolutely necessary, but it's often accompanied by a companion knife that is used for everyday cutting.

This particular kard is really "down-home". Still sharp from when it was made, with what I find to be an outstanding blade profile, it fairly screams "knife". Even the kard that belongs to the Emperor is a functional tool that can cut rope in an emergency. Kards in Museum, even the most exalted ones, have a blade that is utterly functional.

So I've become more and more fond of these knives, and this particular one is completely functional. No ivory handle, like many kards that are on the market. Instead, a down-to-earth handle made of staghorn. A blade profile that will allow you to stab through chain mail if you have to, as well as cut a rope or some meat. Blade geometry that is extremely sophisticated and, from what I understand, difficult to make, and in fact, as I mentioned, I've only seen two kards that have this extremely sophisticated shape.

So that's why I like kards. I hope I wasn't too long-winded, but I wanted to explain exactly why I like this type of knife. I do intend to ech it. At present, I don't have my tools with me, bottles of etchant, or very many tools that I have at home since I'm traveling. I might try the Coca-Cola etch, just to see if what I suspect is true; that one of the most sophisticated blades that I have ever seen is, truly, made out of wootz or some other interesting material. Because of the sophisticated geometry, this blade must've been difficult to make; I cannot see someone using ordinary material for it.

Please, comment on this knife. One of the things that I like about this forum is having access to everybody's combined wisdom.

Montino Bourbon · 23rd December 2012, 03:59 AM

Oh, And I forgot to mention that this is not a small knife; I don't have anything to measure with, but it's at least 12 inches long. A nice burly knife. I'll measure it later today and let you know exactly it's size.

Lew · 23rd December 2012, 04:04 AM

Well I think it's a lovely well used kard. The stag hilt indicates northern India. Maybe 1920-40? The hilt exhibits wear and patina. Good find!

Lew

Btw here is one I picked up some years back that is of WW2 vintage more a pesh than a kard forged from a massive file and is exceedingly stout and sharp. Just feels good in the hand which probably why you bought yours

.

Montino Bourbon · 23rd December 2012, 04:29 AM

That Is definitely a stout kard. Have you etched it?

"Feels good in the hand"; I like that; that expresses exactly what I feel.

What do you think of the 'hollow ground' blade geometry? The third picture shows it best.

Lew · 23rd December 2012, 04:50 AM

Montino

Most classic kards that I have seen have a flat grind blade geometry but these are of Turkish or Persian in origin. Yours is quite unique. As far as etching mine I can see the teeth from the file it was made from so there is little more to be seen if I were to etch it

.

Montino Bourbon · 23rd December 2012, 06:46 AM

Yes, the blade geometry is quite unique. The only other one that I have seen like that was here in Jaipur, at a VERY expensive shop, Allah Baksh, who is famous for hard-to-find antiques. The one that he had had an ivory handle, like many kards for upper-class people, and it was provenanced from Persia. The price was astronomical, one 'lakh', which is 100,000 rupees, roughly $2000.- and the last two inches toward the point was very pitted, which put me off; what if I was in the supermarket and a knife fight broke out over the sushi? It might break in combat, and that I can't allow to happen!

Anyway, I have only seen one other like it. Now, I will try to etch it, but being in India traveling I have to see what 'field expedients' I can use.

David R · 23rd December 2012, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

Montino

Most classic kards that I have seen have a flat grind blade geometry but these are of Turkish or Persian in origin. Yours is quite unique. As far as etching mine I can see the teeth from the file it was made from so there is little more to be seen if I were to etch it

.

Are you sure they are the remains of a file's teeth, koftgari when stripped leaves behind a cross hatched pattern in the steel that can look like the remains of a file.

Lew · 23rd December 2012, 01:38 PM

David yes I'm sure they are file teeth. Use to hang out with many blade smiths when I first got the bug and saw many examples a hand forged knives from files.

22nd December 2012, 04:00 PM	#1
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	New Kard... extremely unique. I'm in Jaipur, where I'm visiting for a month and a half. I was here last January, and I've already told the story of how I went into a large store and was finally admitted to the "back room", after performing a song and dance to convince the salesman that I knew that he was trying to pass off something new as something old, because it had been rubbed in the dirt a little. At the time, there was a large kard that I had seen, but I could not afford. I was very impressed by the blade profile, which was one of only two fully hollow ground kards that I've ever seen. Returning to Jaipur for a month and a half, I had my driver take me to that store again. The gentleman in question took me to the back room, where I admired the kard that I am talking about. Even though it had been sanded with some very, very rough sandpaper, I loved everything about this knife. I ended up buying it, taking it back to the hotel, and working it over with some very fine crocus cloth, taking hours to try and ameliorate the condition of the blade so that I could etch it. I have not yet etched it, but I suspect that it's wootz. this is only the second kard I've ever seen that has this kind of hollow ground blade rather than a T back blade. I would like to ask all of you if you know of any others like this; most of them are either hollow flat with the T-back blade or more or less triangular. Any opinions? Attached Images

23rd December 2012, 04:04 AM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Well I think it's a lovely well used kard. The stag hilt indicates northern India. Maybe 1920-40? The hilt exhibits wear and patina. Good find! Lew Btw here is one I picked up some years back that is of WW2 vintage more a pesh than a kard forged from a massive file and is exceedingly stout and sharp. Just feels good in the hand which probably why you bought yours . Attached Images Last edited by Lew; 23rd December 2012 at 04:18 AM.

22nd December 2012, 04:48 PM	#2
TribalBlades Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 33	hi there. i am sorry to be so insensitive, however what is it that people see in these kind of knives??? they sort of resemble butter knives, though the blade is quite good. i saw one sell for around $1000 , if i remember correctly. so what is so special about them?

23rd December 2012, 03:54 AM	#4
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Dear friends; I'm always amused at what people collect and why. For me, the knife is one of the most basic tools. It has morphed into so many different forms all over the world, some more and some less functional, some highly ceremonial, and some very formalized. The bow and arrow is a standoff weapon; when you get to the sword and shield you're already getting closer to the person. The knife or the dagger is the closest item of defense. In fact, it's so close and personal that even in the court of the emperor people were allowed to retain their knives, even when they had to put their swords into safekeeping. Daggers were highly ornamented and cherished, and were very personal possessions. I didn't set out to collect knives with a particular idea or style in mind, I would just run across things that I liked, and so my "collection" is pretty eclectic. I have a really nice Jambiya with a rhino horn handle that my sister got me when she was in Yemen. I have a few Keris, some more and some less valuable. I have various other daggers. Of all the blade weapons that I have seen, I like the kard a lot. In some ways, I am a functionalist, and so I like a knife that is really A KNIFE, if you know what I mean. I like a knife that you can use to cut meat, to cut string, or to defend yourself. You know when Crocodile Dundee pulls out his knife and says "that ain't a Noife, THIS is a noife!" That's kind of the attitude that I'm talking about. When I look at a kard, what I think is "knife". The blade of the kard has not become formalized at all, except to be better for stabbing. It's very much still a knife. A jambiya can be used to cut rope if it's absolutely necessary, but it's often accompanied by a companion knife that is used for everyday cutting. This particular kard is really "down-home". Still sharp from when it was made, with what I find to be an outstanding blade profile, it fairly screams "knife". Even the kard that belongs to the Emperor is a functional tool that can cut rope in an emergency. Kards in Museum, even the most exalted ones, have a blade that is utterly functional. So I've become more and more fond of these knives, and this particular one is completely functional. No ivory handle, like many kards that are on the market. Instead, a down-to-earth handle made of staghorn. A blade profile that will allow you to stab through chain mail if you have to, as well as cut a rope or some meat. Blade geometry that is extremely sophisticated and, from what I understand, difficult to make, and in fact, as I mentioned, I've only seen two kards that have this extremely sophisticated shape. So that's why I like kards. I hope I wasn't too long-winded, but I wanted to explain exactly why I like this type of knife. I do intend to ech it. At present, I don't have my tools with me, bottles of etchant, or very many tools that I have at home since I'm traveling. I might try the Coca-Cola etch, just to see if what I suspect is true; that one of the most sophisticated blades that I have ever seen is, truly, made out of wootz or some other interesting material. Because of the sophisticated geometry, this blade must've been difficult to make; I cannot see someone using ordinary material for it. Please, comment on this knife. One of the things that I like about this forum is having access to everybody's combined wisdom.

23rd December 2012, 03:59 AM	#5
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Oh, And I forgot to mention that this is not a small knife; I don't have anything to measure with, but it's at least 12 inches long. A nice burly knife. I'll measure it later today and let you know exactly it's size.

23rd December 2012, 04:29 AM	#7
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	That Is definitely a stout kard. Have you etched it? "Feels good in the hand"; I like that; that expresses exactly what I feel. What do you think of the 'hollow ground' blade geometry? The third picture shows it best.

23rd December 2012, 04:50 AM	#8
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Montino Most classic kards that I have seen have a flat grind blade geometry but these are of Turkish or Persian in origin. Yours is quite unique. As far as etching mine I can see the teeth from the file it was made from so there is little more to be seen if I were to etch it .

23rd December 2012, 06:46 AM	#9
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Yes, the blade geometry is quite unique. The only other one that I have seen like that was here in Jaipur, at a VERY expensive shop, Allah Baksh, who is famous for hard-to-find antiques. The one that he had had an ivory handle, like many kards for upper-class people, and it was provenanced from Persia. The price was astronomical, one 'lakh', which is 100,000 rupees, roughly $2000.- and the last two inches toward the point was very pitted, which put me off; what if I was in the supermarket and a knife fight broke out over the sushi? It might break in combat, and that I can't allow to happen! Anyway, I have only seen one other like it. Now, I will try to etch it, but being in India traveling I have to see what 'field expedients' I can use.

23rd December 2012, 01:38 PM	#11
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	David yes I'm sure they are file teeth. Use to hang out with many blade smiths when I first got the bug and saw many examples a hand forged knives from files.