Assistance please

[A. G. Maisey]

Marcus and some other members posted pics of a couple of similar daggers to these in another thread, but these are, I think, sufficiently different to warrant a new thread, even though to me, they appear related to the ones already shown.

They are completely outside my area of interest, and I do not know what they are, nor what period they come from.

Opinions will be welcome.

Thank you.

[David]

Alan, these are outside my area as well as you probably know, but the second one you show looks like a form of gaucho knife to me and you my find this resource helpful.
http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/facon/criollo.html

[A. G. Maisey]

Its not a gaucho David, it actually came from Italy to New Zealand at the end of the 19th century, and had been in the family of the bloke I got it from for generations. I was told years ago that it is a "Mediterranean Dirk", but from what little of this stuff I understand that is a very generic sort of term. I reckon it is sort of a grandfather of the gaucho. I'm hoping somebody can tell me from where it originally came and about how old it is. I had a pretty good collection of gaucho knives at one time, not a lot, maybe 10 or 12, and this knife is similar, but much smaller, lighter, older than any of the gauchos I had.

[kronckew]

they both look mediterranean to me. big area tho. i'd reduce that to italy and west thru spain.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Kronckew, that's about my opinion too, but I'm hoping somebody might know a little more than that.

[Henk]

I think these knives are corsican vendetta knives. 19th mid 20th century.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for your input Henk.

I have owned a few Corsican knives, got rid of the last one, which was a 19th century folder, about 40 years ago.

The workmanship in both these knives is far superior to any of the Corsicans I owned. The workmanship in the gilded dagger is exceptionally fine, that floral motif is chiselled steel, not quite the sort of thing we see in Corsican knives.

The other knife gives the impression of being very old, I hesitate to put an age on it, because as I've said, I know next to nothing about this sort of thing.

Corsicans came up for discussion here:-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12269

I guess these knives of mine could be Corsicans, but if so, they are not at all typical.

Thanks again.

[mariusgmioc]

Hello Alan,

My guess is that the first one is an exceptional example of South Italian hunting dagger. Quite a beauty!

Unfortunately, no guess for the second one... but I don't think it is Corsican (don't ask me why because it is more like a hunch).

[A. G. Maisey]

A hunting dagger Marius?

Yes, maybe. Italian I can accept, I've always thought Italian or Spanish, and it seems others agree, but I would have thought a hunting dagger would have a guard to prevent the hand slipping down onto the blade, this one is quite robust, but it seems to be tailor-made to slip under a jacket. It is pretty nice, I've had it for nearly 40 years, totally outside my field, but I couldn't resist it. Wasn't real cheap either. I used to eat lentils quite a lot in my younger collecting days. You can live for very extended periods on lentils and rice if you need to.

The other one I tend more towards Spanish, I reckon that the scabbard was covered in red velvet when it was new. Impossible now to know what the covering was, but it looks and feels like it might have been red velvet. It is quite a refined piece in the hand, but the blade was made by welding and doubling, you could not call it damascus, but there are weld indications all through it.

[mariusgmioc]

Yep! Hunting dagger. It is the widening of the blade relative to the hilt that prevents the hand fom sliping over the blade. Czerny's has a couple on sale in their upcoming auction (lots 324, 326, 328 / auction 71) so you can check their website also. Yet, many times I found mistakes on their website, so it definitely cannot be taken as reference.

But let us wait and see what others have to say.

PS: Had lentils today.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Yep! Hunting dagger. It is the widening of the blade relative to the hilt that prevents the hand fom sliping over the blade. Czerny's has a couple on sale in their upcoming auction (lots 324, 326, 328 / auction 71) so you can check their website also. Yet, many times I found mistakes on their website, so it definitely cannot be taken as reference...

Yes, indeed they call them hunting knives (coltello da cacia) whether that is just an allegory or an attribution to practical utility.

[Sajen]

Hello Alan,

the first one I've seen described as Genovese dagger, see for example here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=genovese
The other one could be from Spain IMVHO.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your opinions gentlemen.

I'll accept hunting dagger, but it really seems more suited to something other than that, I have hunted all my life, including chasing wild pigs on foot, and killing them with spears and bayonets, and I just cannot understand how a dagger like this could be used to kill game. I guess you could finish off something that was already down, maybe drive it through an ear, or an eye --- provided the animal didn't kick around too much, but this is a purely stabbing implement, you couldn't do the quick , kind thing and cut its throat.

I'll try to have a look at Czerny's when I get a chance, Marius, in fact I've never visited their site.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thank you for your opinions gentlemen.

I'll accept hunting dagger, but it really seems more suited to something other than that, I have hunted all my life, including chasing wild pigs on foot, and killing them with spears and bayonets, and I just cannot understand how a dagger like this could be used to kill game. I guess you could finish off something that was already down, maybe drive it through an ear, or an eye --- provided the animal didn't kick around too much, but this is a purely stabbing implement, you couldn't do the quick , kind thing and cut its throat.

...

i'd bet that a well decorated 'hunting' sword or dagger/knife would be carried by a noble as part of his 'hunting' outfit, and who would have retainers and servants to do the actual dirty work. a more active noble who wanted to engage in DIY might carry or borrow a more useful version from someone if he wanted to actually insert it into an animal.

he wouldn't want to have any actual wear on his, that would be so declasse. the bottom one with the patinated real blade might fill that role, nice fancy handle for his more senior retainers to show his lord can afford to equip them nicely, but a functional blade for someone who would be required to actually use it.

those of a more sensitive nature or under 18 please look away now.

.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

i'd bet that a well decorated 'hunting' sword or dagger/knife would be carried by a noble as part of his 'hunting' outfit, and who would have retainers and servants to do the actual dirty work...

Fully agreed, Waine; my previous pointing out the allegoric purpose wasn't properly a well expressed adjective

Originally Posted by kronckew

... those of a more sensitive nature or under 18 please look away now...

Or perhaps a better idea would be leaving such 'descriptive & illustrated' part for more specialized venues on the subject, don't you think

.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, I think I see where you're coming from Kronckew:- item of dress, not to actually terminate any animal, but rather as a part of what a lord might wear whilst hunting.

This is a new idea to me. It is not something that fits into the context of Javanese/Balinese lords hunting behaviour, and apart from my own society, these are only ones I know in any depth.

I think what I'm being told here is that European lords would ride out to go a-hunting, but they actually would do not much more than point a firearm and pull the trigger, the underlings would do the wet work.

Interesting concept.

Maybe a dagger like this was used to encourage the faithful retainers to be faithful.

[fernando]

Analogue situations in Iberian nobility terms. You would bet the blades of these hunting dagger/bayonets never saw daylight ... let alone hunting action.
(Toledo 1859 &1863)


.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your responses gentlemen.

The very high quality double edge dagger is a hunting dagger. Probably used by the lord to prod his helpers into the scrum to finish off the raging boar. I'm convinced.

But the other one?

Detlef reckons Genovese, or maybe it is a hunting knife too? Perhaps not a knife with a specific purpose, but just a personal knife?

It is a nice size for a knife that one could carry day in, day out, to slice up the cheese, the salami and the people who cheated at cards.

Don't forget that even though the fork was in use by about the 4th century in Rome, and was in common usage across Italy by the 1600's, in other parts of Europe it took another couple of hundred years to gain universal favour. I guess because Italians eat more pasta than Frenchmen and Englishmen. Anyway, in most of Europe the personal knife was indispensable right through until modern policing methods made them something to be avoided.

Maybe this knife with the holes in the ricasso was just a personal knife?

[Gonzalo G]

The second one is outsandingly similar to a "cuchillo criollo" of the gauchos. In both your cases, the widening of the blade after the hilt acted as a handguard to prevent the hand slipping down to the blade. It is a usual resource in some type of weapons which are used fastened under the belt, so the cloth does not get hooked so easily as with a traditional crossguard when the owner pulled the knife. The piece that covers the beginning of the blade is not only ornamental. It gives rigidity to the blade and helps in protecting the hand to avoid slipping and have an accidental cut.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your input Gonzalo.

[A. G. Maisey]

Just found this pic of another one on-line.

Any ideas where this might have come from?

[kronckew]

again, it has the look of an 18c italian/spanish dagger or gaucho facon. could be anywhere from italy west or southern part of so. america. looks fairly new & pattern welded, lots of custom makers out there who could have been influenced by the style. nice tho. odd edge geometry, like the earlier ones, looks like it's designed for thrusting only.

dimensions?

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by kronckew

again, it has the look of an 18c italian/spanish dagger or gaucho facon. could be anywhere from italy west or southern part of so. america.

Sorry, just to clarify: facones have only one edge, dagas (daggers) have two. Argentinians differenciate both. Gaucho daggers are usually very large, but I have not seen them all. Although this type of dagger is not usual in Argentina, it is not impossible it actually could be made there. But I have reserves on this. The workmanship on the handle looks as it could be made in Spain or Argentina, but the workmanship and style of decoration on the blade does not look Argentinian. Triangular blades on daggers are more common in Italy than Spain, and this dagger looks as designed as a weapon and not as a hunting dagger. It looks small and not robust enough for this purpose, but the pictures alone does not give us a precise idea of it's dimensions. Daggers also can be used to cut and not only to stab. Poignards are exclusively designed to stab. Just search the different ways the British commando's daggers were used to (the Fairbairn-Sykes dagger). Also, the scabbard does not look Spanish or American.
But all this gives us only probabilities, not a certain attribution.
Regards

[Gonzalo G]

I think the general geometry, the decorative motifs, their workmanship and the material of the handle (what is the black stuff, where was it traded and worked?) could be the key to solve this matter. I would bet that America should be discarded. But I am not completely sure and my knowledge on this kind weapons is limited. I am sorry for not beign more useful.
Regards

[kronckew]

while i was purposely vague above, i favour 'italian' myself. dimensions are always helpful.

i suspect from the pattern welded blade and the nice shiney scabbard that it is recent rather than antique 'in the style of' older versions. the double edge appears to be at a rather obtuse angle for cutting, could just be the photo.

a single edged blade as in most gaucho style knives (i have ones from 4"-12" blades - all razor sharp) allows for a much finer angle and sharpness. gauch eating styles require a sharp knife to eat their steak. they occasionally show off by grabbing the steak in their teeth and off hand, then suddenly sweeping the knife by their face to cut off a bite. very impressive - if they miss their nose. i do not recall seeing any noseless argentinians tho.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Just found this pic of another one on-line.

Any ideas where this might have come from?

Hello Alan,

I suspect this latter example is a recent recreation of an Italian hunting knife. Anyhow, I don't think it is "enthnographically correct."

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your further comments gentlemen.

Tell me Marius, why don't you think the latter example is "enthnographically correct." ?

I recognise that the scabbard is a bit gauche, but how about the knife itself?

If not ethnographically correct, where do you think it might have originated?