Scottish Dirk Late 18th Century

[Battara]

Well once again I'm over here in this section, only sharing my first Scottish dirk. Due to the shape of the baluster hilt, the silver studs, and screw top, I place this example in the late 18c to early 19c, leaning toward the late 18c.

The first picture is how I got it with a bent blade. The second picture is after my cleaning and restoration.

[Battara]

Pictures of the hilt and pommel top.

[Battara]

Here are the engravings on the front and back of the silver mounts of the hilt and scabbard. The name: "J McLeod". There is a crown stamp and the pictures of cannons, battle flags, and swords, and spears indicate to me that this person was also an officer in the British military.

My 2 questions:

1. Does the presence of cannons indicate being part of an artillery unit?

2. What does "RB 2" mean?


Other comments welcomed as well.

[Rick]

That also looks like a Gorget engraved on one of the panels.
So, officer?

Oh yeah Jose ; "There can be only one.."

[Battara]

GOOD POINT RICK! I missed that. Many thanks.

[Jim McDougall]

Jose!!! This is an absolutely phenomenal dirk!! and my Highland blood is raging with envy
I have been going through resources for hours and I feel confident this example is much as you have suggested, but I think more toward 1770s because of the wider 'haunches' in the beautifully Celtic knot baluster hilt. The metal studs are of this period to 1790s.
Whitelaw (1908 (1977), p.313) notes that after the Disarming Acts of 1746, following the tragedy at Culloden, proscribed Scots from owning weapons. However the dirk, with its utilitarian purposes was typically permitted, and often the now banned Scottish basket hilts were dismantled and blades repurposed into those for dirks.


This blade seems likely to be one of these blades as its profile seems contrary to most specifically for dirks, and the fuller at the forte resemble known Solingen backsword blade types.


Clearly this dirk is for an officer in a Scottish regiment of the third quarter 18th c.+ as suggested by the military motif, the gorget, sword, cannons and the RB 2 is of course likely a regimental unit. This may well be a heirloom blade mounted in military dress as noted. It would be exciting to imagine that the heirloom blade was in use at the time of Culloden.


The cannon do not suggest artillery ...perhaps the RB 2 could mean Rifle Battalion 2 or some such designation but those units seem much later.


The style of pommel and the mounts predate the familiar stone mounted dirk pommels which began around 1800. It is amazing to have the scabbard also! This is truly amazing Jose, congratulations!


Sources: "The Scottish Dirk" James D. Forman, 1991

"The Scottish Armoury" D. Caldwell, 1979

"Scottish Arms Makers" Charles Whitelaw, 1908 (1977)

" Scottish Swords & Dirks", John Wallace, 1970

[Battara]

Oh Jim, I was excited to be able to get this. I am generally not interested in any Scottish dirk past 1800 due to the transformation of the hilt.

Rifle battalion - not thought of that. The hard part is the first name - James or John?

Still researching this. Thanks for your well informed input! I have the first and last references, but not the 2 middle ones.

BTW - I know I have Irish blood, but Scottish - maybe-ish (if so, perhaps from the McKinnon clan who fought alongside the McDonalds with Bonnie prince Charlie at Culloden!).

[Pukka Bundook]

A Very interesting dirk, and as Jim says a little earlier in the century I would say.
Towards the end of the century and into the 1800's, blades were much wider towards the tip, and have a different look to the hilt. This one is definately earlier.
I can't make out the letters/ initials on the gorget, but I see a crown below it.

It Has to be an officer's dirk,...and I am always very careful about using the term "Officer"!
Crown, Gorget, and if we knew what the letters are on the gorget, it may help ID it.
What is interesting to me, is that it appears to have been used a great deal.

Lovely piece and congrats!!

Edited to add;
This hilt has been niggling at me Jose, so Just looked, and the shoulders on this hilt look nearly identical to those on Government hilts, C 1725 -50.

Best,
R

[Battara]

Well to answer your question, the initials on the gorget are "JML" I think for "J McLeod" on the backside.

With so many McLeods/MacLeods, honing in on the right military service would be helpful to see who it might fit. I emailed the auction house for info on the former owner but no answer.

[shayde78]

The cross section of the blade 'feels' older than mid-1700s. Not an academic opinion, I'll admit, but there's a look about it that feels older.

[Rick]

Well, I emailed the curator of the Royal Regiment of Scotland and enclosed the link to this thread.
Let's see what happens.

[E.B. Erickson]

That's a nice dirk! I am in agreement with what Jim says above about it, with the addition that the blade could be from an English military sword, as the narrow & wide fuller combination was very common on English swords, and the Scots often used English blades in their baskets. The thing that would make me think that this may not be an English blade is the the wide fuller seems a bit wide, and the narrow one a bit narrow when compared to most English military blades.

--ElJay

[Rick]

Did you successfully straighten this blade Jose?

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
The disposition of the fullers is quite typical of some 18thC blades. See attached photograph of a French Petits Montmorency sabre from which I think one could easily craft a blade similar to the Dirk shown here.
The Dirk is a nice thing and I think it might be worth your while dropping a line and some hi-res photographs to the Arms and Armour curator at the Kelvingrove Museum in Glasgow for more info.
Regards,
Norman.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Rick

Did you successfully straighten this blade Jose?

Sure did. The first picture is how it came, the second picture is after I carefully straightened the blade.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
The disposition of the fullers is quite typical of some 18thC blades. See attached photograph of a French Petits Montmorency sabre from which I think one could easily craft a blade similar to the Dirk shown here.
The Dirk is a nice thing and I think it might be worth your while dropping a line and some hi-res photographs to the Arms and Armour curator at the Kelvingrove Museum in Glasgow for more info.
Regards,
Norman.

Great idea, Norman, thank you. And thank you all for your thoughts, confirmations, and help. Great ideas.

In the meantime, here is the back of the scabbard that I forgot to post.

[Pukka Bundook]

Jose,

Have you looked at Government hilts?
In your last photos, I can see the side panels on the shoulders. These, with the three pins and the shape, are identical to the Government hilt of 1725-50.

[Battara]

Although I have studied what I can before getting a dirk, I am quite ignorant in many many areas.

Government hilts? Never heard of them. Please elaborate!

[Pukka Bundook]

Jose,

From quite an early date, the British Government raised regiments in Scotland. Particularly the Highlands. The Government issued these soldiers muskets swords and dirks. Even pistols in the style of the "Doune "All metal , but made in Birmingham or London.

Even the blade shape of yours, (more a straight taper) although a little shorter, is Very like the Government issue in style.

Very best,
Richard.

[Battara]

Thank you Richard. In fact thank all of you for your help.

I will take your suggestions seriously and they have been very helpful and greatly appreciated.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Jose,

From quite an early date, the British Government raised regiments in Scotland. Particularly the Highlands. The Government issued these soldiers muskets swords and dirks. Even pistols in the style of the "Doune "All metal , but made in Birmingham or London.

Even the blade shape of yours, (more a straight taper) although a little shorter, is Very like the Government issue in style.

Very best,
Richard.

So we are talking about the government raised regiments after 1745, right?

[colin henshaw]

Originally Posted by Battara

So we are talking about the government raised regiments after 1745, right?

The Black Watch (the 42nd), a Highland regiment was raised around 1725. The Royal Scots, a Lowland regiment was raised in 1633.

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by Battara

So we are talking about the government raised regiments after 1745, right?

Hi.
The fact is that there were more Scots on the Govt side at Culloden than in the army of Charles Edward Stuart https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/battle-culloden and contrary to popular belief not all Scots from the Highlands and Islands joined the army of the 'Prince'. The McCormicks are affiliated with the McLaines of Lochbuie from the Isle of Mull and they were one of the Clans that did not join the fight. Hope this explains a bit more the why the Govt tag might be applicable to your dirk.
Regards,
Norman

[Battara]

Ah.........I understand better now, thank you.

On a different matter, 2 questions:

1. should I braze the crack to help stablize the blade?

2. should I attempt to restore the scabbard?

I will also attempt to contact that museum in Scotland.

[Pukka Bundook]

Norman,

Have you ever read any of the letters of the Chiefs of Grant? Particularly the personal correspondence?
It is a wonderful window into the time period of the '45 and both before and after.

I looked at it extensively when I procured a flintlock pistol belonging to one of the Chiefs of Grant. It gives us a very good idea of how many saw the rebels as just that, and continued about their daily business. Both Sir James Grant and his son, Ludovic Grant were MP's for their home ridings, and spent much time in London.
I will say no more as it may be deemed off topic, but if you wish to look at these letters, PM me and I'll link you with an on-line source.

Best regards,
Richard.

[Kmaddock]

I am unsure about fixing crack
If mine I would leave alone,
if I had to do a repair as in it is likely to break apart if it was picked up roughly I would use silver solder rather than braze as it is easier to work with and will tarnish to look less obtrusive
Lovely item though
Well done

Ken

[Battara]

Some good and helpful points Ken, thank you.

I’ll leave it alone for now, but need be in the future, I’ll use very hard silver solder (had forgotten that one).

[Jim McDougall]

Still intrigued by this amazing dirk, I have been plowing through as many references as I can find. While enjoying the history of the Scottish clans and Jacobite myths etc. it is exciting to learn more on these topics with this dirk leading the way.

One reference I found was "The Scottish Dirk" (1975/1991) by James D. Forman, probably the foremost author I have found on the topic aside from John Wallace "Scottish Swords and Dirks" (1970).


As previously discussed, the character of this hilt seems to correspond to those of around mid 18th century 1750-60, and as noted the blade seems a cut down English military blade of much earlier.


In reading through the Forman article (p.19) there is a dirk of 1805-1820s with the odd canted stone pommel and very flat styling of the military sort of the 19th century. While clearly having nothing to do with the exceptional 18th century dirk we are looking at here.....it is noted as of the 78th Regiment of Foot......better known as ROSS-SHIRE BUFFS.

The unit was formed at Ft. George in July 1793 by Francis MacKenzie , and by 1794 was off to Holland for campaigns seeing action continually and into Napoleonic campaigns. Ft, George was built post 1746 near Inverness.
The MacKenzie clan is prevalent there and Ross Shire.


I am wondering if perhaps this might be our RB 2


The most unusual element of this dirk is the curious device or fixture on the pommel...the four posts surround with central capstan. The only example of dirk with a similar type of fixture on the pommel in this manner is in Stone (p.209, fig. 259, #1) and of 1700-20, which is far too early in its other features compared to the baluster style in the example posted. I have not found this pommel feature on any other examples in the material I have researched.


The closest thing I can find that resembles this kind of device is the famed Brooch of Lorn which has a stone at center and surrounded by posts with stones at top of each. Here I would note that the regions of Ross Shire extend to the outer Hebrides and Isle of Lewis. This brooch is related to Lords of the Isles from medieval times. While this is a tenuous suggestion it is interesting in the design in comparison.


Possibly this is an earlier dirk which has had the mounts later engraved to this unit and owner? It would be interesting to see if the National Army Museum in London might have rosters of this unit in this period (they were later in the 19th century joined with Seaforth Highanders (1881).


Hope this might be of some help establishing the important pedigree of this dirk.

[Jim McDougall]

More interesting notes 'historically' to the contexts possibly involving this dirk is some degree, as well as toward some observations concerning Culloden.
I have always thought that indeed there were considerable numbers of Scots in the ranks of the English forces (it must be noted that the term Scot was used broadly of course for Highlanders, Lowlanders and Islanders).

In "The Myth of the Jacobite Clans" by Murray Pittock (2009) on p,73, there are some interesting notes regarding the ranks of the Jacobites and those of the 'government.
The 'Black Watch' was mentioned (incidentally the term referred to dubh...Gaelic for black, dark, hidden, and that this unit was created after 1725 to patrol the Highland clans, often covertly, watching for subversive activity etc.).
It is noted that the Black Watch was so mistrusted that they were kept in the south of England, but a number seem to have joined the Jacobites anyway (p.73).

It is noted as well that "...the Jacobite cause consistently recruited more adherents in Scotland than the Whig governments.
Apparently among Lord Loudon's forces marching north, all the MacDonalds, MacLeods and MacKenzies deserted and joined the Highland army.
The author notes that "...desertions from the Jacobites to the government are hard to find. The evidence simply does not seem to be there to support the assertion that more Scots were in arms against the Jacobites than for them."(p.73).

Moving back to our dirk in discussion, it is interesting that Culloden took place near Inverness, the area of course that I have noted as that of the unit the inscription may refer to, as well as the founder, a MacKenzie. Perhaps nothing more than coincidental notes...........but it is the kind of thing that studying arms and history is all about.......possibilities.

It is still perplexing that this dirk has all the attributes of an earlier type, yet the inscribed markings are from a much later unit. In looking further into the style I found Charles Whitelaw's "Scottish Arms Makers" (1934 repr. 1977) there is in Appendix 3 his "Origin and Developmet of the Highland Dirk" (1908).
Figures 3 and 4 (p.312) are apparently regarded as the earliest types of dirk, with striking similarity to our example......and in #4 I found a remarkable instance resembling the fixture on our example, however instead of the four posts..."...the top of the pommel has four leaf shaped sinkings".

Such embellishents and designs are often found in Scottish weapons, and in many cases there are distinct symbolisms, however often their meanings have been lost. I recall trying to discover more on such symbolism and talking with Dr. Cyril Mazansky, who was writing his outstanding book "The British Basket Hilt Sword".He said he was focused on typology and was not particularly keen on symbolism.


It would be great to discover more on this curious fixture atop the pommel on this dirk, which seems to have been a very early appendage, and how thie dirk has seemingly become possibly involved so much later in a military setting.


Whitelaw (op.cit. p.313) also refers to the vigorous enforcement of the disarming acts after 1746, and that while weaponry was proscribed, the dirk was considered utilitarian in degree thus somewhat allowed. With this, many of the swords were cut down into dirks (and other tools). In the same plate discussed, fig. 6 has a blade noted as cut down in this manner and very much resembles the blade on our example.

[Pukka Bundook]

Jim,
Very interesting contributions from yourself. Just like we expect!
Whilst reading these, it was running through my mind how many times , and in different parts of the world, we see arms of the officer class often carried by several generations. An example would be the Japanese katana sometimes with a Very old blade, being carried in "working clothes" by officers in WW2. Indeed, expert "sniffers" were employed by well to do families after the war, to try to locate heirlooms lost along with the family member.
This dirk may well fit into this category, And fits entirely with an officer carrying an old family blade.

Jim,
If you want a link to the Grant Correspondence, I can send you one. It is quite an eye-opener regarding the 1695 (was it?) 1715 and '45 rebellions.

Best regards,
Richard.