Arabian Sayf

[ariel]

Just ended
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=007

Nice wootz blade, unfortunately with too many slag pitting.
There is a mere recent, amateurish, inscription parallel to the spine.
Any translation?
The pommel is unusual: the buyer calls it "camel head" and I like this definition. Scabbard fittings are nice, silver and repousse and the turquoise adds quite a lot to the beauty. The meaning of " Britannia" in the description evades me.
Overall, I guess it is an Arabian one (from the Arabian Peninsula) and would look very good on my wall...
The price, of course, is exorbitant and the shipping is outrageous.

[Rick]

14.5 K for that ?!?!?
This is ridiculous !

[spiral]

Nice enough blade & I especialy like the handle, but sadley the belt hanger fittings look much coarser & more recent than the scabbard throat, blade & handle to my eye though.

Britania can have various relevant meanings to this piece I would think.

Generaly Britannia silver is an alloy of silver containing 95.84% silver, with the balance usually copper.

But rather like the terms Eastern, Nickel or German silver, Britannia silver should probably be distinguished from Britannia metal, a pewter like or white metal alloy contaning no silver.


Spiral

[S.Al-Anizi]

I always thought this one was afghani, with a persian blade (the swivel on the pommel). It doesnt strike me as arabian (peninsula) at all. The belt on the scabbard is also very un-arabian, arabs (of arabia) usually wore their swords using a rope of silk and gold/silver thread, or cheaper, just plain cotton. Not a belt.

Although it could be a syrian saif, more likely. With the belt (they used belts)

[Lew]

$14,500 sure thing I'll buy two of them especially when you do not get to see what the entire blade looks like


Lew

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Rick

14.5 K for that ?!?!?
This is ridiculous !

Yep. No bids either.

Ian.

[S.Al-Anizi]

Originally Posted by Ian

Yep. No bids either.

Ian.

I agree, this is not worth that much.

[Battara]

Love the mounts but the blade - blehhh!

[ham]

This is a typical Hyderabad Arab remount of Persian work. Interesting history to this group, they are also know for their matchlock guns.
It is silver mounted, 'Eastern' or 'coin' silver are the terms generally used for this type.

Ham

[S.Al-Anizi]

Originally Posted by ham

This is a typical Hyderabad Arab remount of Persian work. Interesting history to this group, they are also know for their matchlock guns.
It is silver mounted, 'Eastern' or 'coin' silver are the terms generally used for this type.

Ham

Well the silverwork is not arabian quality.

[ariel]

Interesting...
If you think it is "North Indian", could it be Uzbeki? They loved tuquoises.
I do not recall seeing "camel head" pommels on N. Indian/Central Asian swords. Any examples?

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by Rick

14.5 K for that ?!?!?
This is ridiculous !

Rick, I agree, BUT do you see this type of sword (with 5 original stamps, original scabbard and mounts being readily available for less? Do you know how many people will pay way more for this one? I know plenty. The ONLY ridiculous part of it is that you can not pay a lot without seeing and carefully inspecting it.
I think it's persian or syrian. The mounts are probably from another sword.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Rick, I agree, BUT do you see this type of sword (with 5 original stamps, original scabbard and mounts being readily available for less? Do you know how many people will pay way more for this one? I know plenty. The ONLY ridiculous part of it is that you can not pay a lot without seeing and carefully inspecting it.
I think it's persian or syrian. The mounts are probably from another sword.

Alex, this particular sword IMO is not worth what was asked ;from the comments received so far it appears to me a remounted/married piece which I interpret as not having the original scabbard and mounts. Aside from that; as you say; it would be foolish to risk so much money on a few poor quality pictures .
For this kind of money one would again IMO need to have a personal inspection by an aknowledged expert in the field.

Can we discount that this piece could also be a forgery?

[ham]

What sloth, gentlemen.

Has any of you bothered to look into the history of Hyderabad, or for that matter, even located it on a map? UZBEKI? For goodness sake.

Indolent and unsupported opinions... the study of antique arms and armour requires one to be informed historically as well as geographically. Pray open a book once in awhile.

Ham

[Tim Simmons]

I like it. I could live with it but I would only think of paying a price around that figure divided by 15 . Then maybe persuaded higher.

[B.I]

hi,
i wasnt even remotely considering joining in this post, as it well outside my sphere and there are more able contributors here that would offer a more interesting opinion.
however, i am slightly confused as to where it is leading.
ham, i do understand your opinion of a hyderabad origin, but i am afraid i dont agree.
there has been a theory of a hyderabad origin a particular type of saif (previously thought to be yemeni) due to the decoration of the scabbard mounts. the theory was backed up by the presence of arab mercenaries in this region during this period.
robert elgood discusses this in one of his books, but i didnt agree then, and have not been convinced since. of course its plausable, as there are a number of these swords present in india and there must be reason for this. to say they are made by artisans in hyderabad for the foreign mercenaries can only be speculation.
there are elements of indian work but again, not enough in my opinion to define india as an origin. the work on these scabards, again in my opinion, is not hyderabadi as i dont feel the decoration even closely relates to the style of the region. hints of india in general, yes, but you can say that with a lot of related cultures.
this point has always puzzled me and i had a long coversation with the author and after thoroughly explaining his reasoning to me, nothing said was even remotely convincing past opinion and possibility. in fact, it was all way too tenuous and without much past scant hints.
yes, there are a number of these swords in india, but with the presence of such a large body of mercenaries, this is to be expected.
i am afraid my library concentrates on india, and only veers off a little onto other regions. if there another source and more backing to this theory, i would be intrigued to hear it and pleased to put peace to never-answered question.
as with all discussions, books should come second to the main location of any potential answers - the piece itself. this piece speaks of many possibilities, but i personally dont think hyderabad is one of them. i look forward you an expansion of your theory.

[ham]

First and foremost, the Arab presence in Hyderabad dates back many centuries, and in the time of this weapon's mounting Hyderabad boasted a large Arab community, not simply mercenaries but merchants and artisans, poets, calligraphers etc. Further information on this subject is readily available online and of course, in books, as I suggested in an earlier post.

As for the sword itself, I think it clear the blade and guard are Persian work which has been remounted. The mounts, consisting of grip, pommel and scabbard, display engraved and repouseed motifs which are characteristic of Hyderabad, i.e. they represent a fusion of Arab peninsular work (visible particularlty in the borders of the mounts) and N. Indian work (visible in the floral sections at the center of the mounts.) I think one can deduce this after examining both Arab and N. Indian silverwork, provided they have access to sufficient examples.

Ham

Originally Posted by B.I

hi,
i wasnt even remotely considering joining in this post, as it well outside my sphere and there are more able contributors here that would offer a more interesting opinion.
however, i am slightly confused as to where it is leading.
ham, i do understand your opinion of a hyderabad origin, but i am afraid i dont agree.
there has been a theory of a hyderabad origin a particular type of saif (previously thought to be yemeni) due to the decoration of the scabbard mounts. the theory was backed up by the presence of arab mercenaries in this region during this period.
robert elgood discusses this in one of his books, but i didnt agree then, and have not been convinced since. of course its plausable, as there are a number of these swords present in india and there must be reason for this. to say they are made by artisans in hyderabad for the foreign mercenaries can only be speculation.
there are elements of indian work but again, not enough in my opinion to define india as an origin. the work on these scabards, again in my opinion, is not hyderabadi as i dont feel the decoration even closely relates to the style of the region. hints of india in general, yes, but you can say that with a lot of related cultures.
this point has always puzzled me and i had a long coversation with the author and after thoroughly explaining his reasoning to me, nothing said was even remotely convincing past opinion and possibility. in fact, it was all way too tenuous and without much past scant hints.
yes, there are a number of these swords in india, but with the presence of such a large body of mercenaries, this is to be expected.
i am afraid my library concentrates on india, and only veers off a little onto other regions. if there another source and more backing to this theory, i would be intrigued to hear it and pleased to put peace to never-answered question.
as with all discussions, books should come second to the main location of any potential answers - the piece itself. this piece speaks of many possibilities, but i personally dont think hyderabad is one of them. i look forward you an expansion of your theory.

[ariel]

So you seem to agree that there are Arabian Peninsular elements here? that was my impression too.
What about peculiar form of the pommel?

[B.I]

Originally Posted by ham

First and foremost, the Arab presence in Hyderabad dates back many centuries, and in the time of this weapon's mounting Hyderabad boasted a large Arab community, not simply mercenaries but merchants and artisans, poets, calligraphers etc. Further information on this subject is readily available online and of course, in books, as I suggested in an earlier post.

As for the sword itself, I think it clear the blade and guard are Persian work which has been remounted. The mounts, consisting of grip, pommel and scabbard, display engraved and repouseed motifs which are characteristic of Hyderabad, i.e. they represent a fusion of Arab peninsular work (visible particularlty in the borders of the mounts) and N. Indian work (visible in the floral sections at the center of the mounts.) I think one can deduce this after examining both Arab and N. Indian silverwork, provided they have access to sufficient examples.

Ham

hi ham,
i am away from my library, but am fully aware of the history of hyderabad. yes, it had a strong arab presence but so did a lot of other places. from scant memory, the nizam had a connection with the yemen (?) royal family.
but, this still doesnt explain hyderabad as 'confirmed' region for this redressing.
i can see nothing indian in the hilt, so i can only assume you are talking about the scabbard mounting.
your assessment seems quite definate, so i was hoping for more of a reason than a quick internet search. i am always willing (actually, hoping) to be proven wrong as this helps me learn more. i am not saying this cant be hyderabadi, but there is nothing definative that suggests this.
also, you say
''I think one can deduce this after examining both Arab and N. Indian silverwork''
hyderabad is in the south. ok, you can say maybe middle india, but never north. it was part of the deccan plateau and so under the control of the sultanates. even during the consistant mogul expansion, hyderabad kept its artistic roots, which is fully evident in the arts and architecture. so, why would it veer towards an arabic style so suddenly?
the deccan, until relatively recently, has been completely ignored and india was thought to be moghul or hindu. recent work has opened up peoples eyes to a style of art that is very specific.
i wonder where your 'hyderabad style' originates from? there must be specific pieces, or specific references that you are taking from. i have mentioned elgoods contribution, but is there something else?
there is always an option of this being made by an 'arab' artisan in hyderabad (or anywhere in india) but surely this is speculation.
given your north indian/arab suggestion, could not afghanistan be an option? there has been an strong arab presence there for many years. this would make ariels 'uzbeki' not as ridiculous as you had thought. this isnt my suggestion at all, just an alternative to hyderabad.
i agree that the sword is persian, that has been redressed. there is an additional signature on the blade, and there is a good possibility this was placed on during this redressing. maybe this would lead to a clue of the origins.
i hope that you will add to your references and i am intrigued to know more. this is only an opinion, and i am more than happy to concede, given a convincing arguement. but, i have argued this point before and am still waiting to hear anything past speculation and opinion. i hope that you are right, as its an issue that has not been put to bed as yet.

edit - i am also aware of a 'hyderabadi style' but have always questioned it. i hope you may offer a reason why this style was thought to be from this region. i have always thought it was said, then assumed, then became a 'fact'. again, if you can determine the origin of this thought, then i can see what i am missing.

[The Double D]

I thought discussions of value and worth were off limits on this board?

[spiral]

DD. The rule is...


.................................................. ...........
8. APPRAISALS

Public appraisals are not permitted on these fora. However, if you would like an appraisal of an item's value or market conditions, please request that other members contact you with that information via email or PM.
.................................................. ..............

So personaly I wouldnt have though then generalised above discusian about an interesting but vastly overpriced & unsold sword in a past auction realy counted as a request for appraisel.

Spiral

[ariel]

The question of a strange pommel bothered me. Then, I remembered the Law of Nature:" When in doubt, read Astvatsaturyan's book on Turkish weapons"
Here are the pics of Balkan swords; one has a pommel curiously similar to the one in question. Astvatsaturyan mentions that it was a common feature of the swords from that area: looking like Persian (90 degrees) and then going down. The Balkan attribution , by the way, would tie in the turquoise decorations as well.

[The Double D]

I fail to see a difference...the only purpose in discussing the fact something is over priced is to established it true price, and that to me is an appraisal.

If the appraisal rules applies to novice new guys to this board it should apply to Moderators and Administrator equally.

[Ian]

DD:

It's my understanding that an appraisal is a statement of the current market value of something, usually provided by an expert, mainly for the purpose of selling the item or insuring it.

We have at least a couple of attorneys on the Forum who can give a legal definition of "appraisal," but basically saying something is outrageously over priced is not an appraisal as I understand the term.

Ian.

[The Double D]

Originally Posted by Ian

DD:

It's my understanding that an appraisal is a statement of the current market value of something, usually provided by an expert, mainly for the purpose of selling the item or insuring it.

Certainly not the criteria used when I and other New people to this board have asked the question what gives an item worth when we had no intention of buying, selling or insuring, only learning. The mere asking of the question has brought a heavy hand to bear.

We have at least a couple of attorneys on the Forum who can give a legal definition of "appraisal," but basically saying something is outrageously over priced is not an appraisal as I understand the term.

Ian.

I'm sure those same Attorneys with payment of the proper retainer would also argue that a discussion of what features make an item less valuable is part of an appraisal process.

My real point is that your rule about appraisals is too vague. If you used the above paragraph and include the word buying and a sentence about when discssions of value are acceptable it would be clearer.

You might also add some history to the rule. Like why you made this rules. If If understand right there has been some legal action taken against a Forum about the issue of appraisals. Tell people and they will be more understanding.


My apologies to Ariel for hijacking your thread.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by The Double D

Certainly not the criteria used when I and other New people to this board have asked the question what gives an item worth when we had no intention of buying, selling or insuring, only learning. The mere asking of the question has brought a heavy hand to bear.

Would you like me to apologize again?

I'm sure those same Attorneys with payment of the proper retainer would also argue that a discussion of what features make an item less valuable is part of an appraisal process.

My services are provided pro bono to the forum.

My real point is that your rule about appraisals is too vague.

This may well be: we're only human.

To clarify, this thread is okay. A thread or post that asks, "What is this ______ worth?" is not.

[ariel]

I am bumping it up because of the extraneous points raised.
Back to the original question:
Is it Balkan?

[Valjhun]

No, it isn't. See the difference of the decoration allaround the sword from the book wich is (well, better image would help) a Balkan piece.

I vote for combined afgano-persian provvenience.

[B.I]

ahem...

i have just spent two fun-filled days with jens, who i was entertaining over here. we were knee deep in fabulous collections and stimulating conversations.
amidst which, hyderabad was mentioned. on this subject, he asked which one?

which one??

well, in my infinate knowledge of india, it seems i was unaware there are two hyderabads, both spelt the same way.
one, of course, is in what was once the kingdom of golconda, an area that leant itself to a specific style of indian art whose roots defied the mughal influence.
the other, is apparantly in the sind region....in north india!!

so, ham, if you meant the hyderabad in the south, then i ask again to expand your theories.
if you mean the sind region, which would make sense to your mention of its similarites to north indian art, then i will be eating humble pie, ordering the cheque and getting my coat!!

i will chase the 'yemeni' swords i mentioned before, which elgood though to be hyberabadi and find out which region he meant.

there is nothing more refreshing than being caught out by your own cleverness :-)

sorry for diverting again ariel

edit -
attached a map, showing hyderabad in the south, and in what is now pakistan

[ham]

Bon apetit, mon cher B.