Korean Korea sword / sabre

[Copycat]

Hello All,

Please see below pictures. Is this a Korean sword? Definitely not a katana.There is little information on Korean sword. Online examples of Korean swords are diverse.

This also unlikely a Vietnamese or another South East Asian Japanese inspired sword. The tip of the sword is a Korean and central asian feature.

I am really tempted to inspect the tang.

[Gavin Nugent]

Not Korean... looks to be based on a Japanese WWII blade given the pin in the tang showing under the leather hilt wrapping.

Gavin

[Copycat]

Hi Gavin,

Thank you for your reply. Korean swords are diverse. A pin in the hilt is possible for Korean swords.

See below link.

https://nyaongzcom.wordpress.com/202...german-museum/

Edit:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=Korea

[Copycat]

The appearance reminds me of a gunto.

[Jim McDougall]

My Korean saber, as per Scott Rodell & Philip Tom, seems quite similar.

[Gavin Nugent]

The hole relevance, as far as I understand it is in relation to the tang size and if it is or not retaining a fitting in place, and what size the knife or sword is.

The link you shared from the forum is a great example of the tang shapes and the hole position for a knife sized item.

Many are also peened tang and the hole is used for the lanyard, others I have seen are peened tangs and someone has filled the hole with a peg too, others are secured by the lanyard fittings alone, not an inserted pin...

A few of the Korean swords I've sold are seen below. they show some of the variances I note.

The sword you present looks Japanese to me with the images there are to work from, in appearances, style and aspects like the pin and the leather coverings.

[Copycat]

@jim
Thank you for your pictures. You saber is no doubt a handsome Korean saber.

@gavin
Maybe the knife was a wrong example. The other link has Korean swords With pins too.

Jim also posted a lovely example with a pin. This saber is also Japanese in appearance. However, it's absolutely not Japanese or Japanese influenced.

Your example looks more Chinese in appearance, but this does not mean it's Chinese or Chinese influenced.

[Copycat]

Peening and using a lanyard is both Chinese and Korean in style. An inserted pin is both Japanese and Korean in style.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Copycat

@jim
Thank you for your pictures. You saber is no doubt a handsome Korean saber.

@gavin
Maybe the knife was a wrong example. The other link has Korean swords With pins too.

Jim also posted a lovely example with a pin. This saber is also Japanese in appearance. However, it's absolutely not Japanese or Japanese influenced.

Your example looks more Chinese in appearance, but this does not mean it's Chinese or Chinese influenced.

Copycat, thank you so much for recognizing my post and the kind words on my Korean saber. As I mentioned this was confirmed Korean when I got it from Scott Rodell over 20 years ago, and Philip Tom agreed. I consider these guys to be the highest authorities on the swords of China, Korea,and Asia,in the 30+ years I have known them.

There is a certain and notable friction between the Japanese and Koreans, however the influences of Japan (and clearly China) cannot be disputed in the Korean weapon forms. I recall meeting a Japanese gentleman once who was traveling the US to purchase and repatriate Japanese swords taken as souvenirs in WWII. This is a prevalent circumstance in Japan with the families who are charged with the identification and preservation of the famed swords of the Samurai.
In talking with him (through interpreter) he showed me the astounding examples he had acquired that day, some over 600 years old, and looking almost new in some cases.
I showed him a photo of my Korean sword, but his face almost twisted as he looked away and handed the picture back disdainfully. The mood and character of the meeting quickly changed, the interpreter said, 'he has no idea what THIS is', and the exchange ended.

As I understand the Japanese destroyed countless numbers of Korean swords during the occupation in WWII. This is apparently the reason for the rarity of examples. When I was beginning my search for a Korean sword nearly 40 years ago, there was virtually zero information on them in the west.

Japanese sword influences traveled widely through the Orient, as often did the blades. Even the Ainu people known in Siberian regions into the northern Japanese islands used Japanese blades in their edged weapons. I have discovered even examples of Japanese katana in Indian regions in the east, and of course they existed through SE Asian countries.

The same conundrums in specifying whether a sword is from one provenance or another when these influences are present presents difficulty, but that distinctive hole in the 'tsuba' (?) seems characteristic in Korean examples as does the octagonal shape.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Copycat

@gavin
Maybe the knife was a wrong example. The other link has Korean swords With pins too.

Jim also posted a lovely example with a pin. This saber is also Japanese in appearance. However, it's absolutely not Japanese or Japanese influenced.

Your example looks more Chinese in appearance, but this does not mean it's Chinese or Chinese influenced.

Copycat,

Indeed, there are Korean swords with pins, I also shared one in within the three images to add further context.

Jim's sword does have a pin. It is not at all Japanese in appearance though, that is evidenced when considering its dimensions, fittings, relevance of blade type to the period of the sword itself, the differences in grip wrapping, the scabbard suspension.

You reference my example being Chinese in appearance... are you referring to one or all three of them?
Jim has provided a good discourse on the influences above, yet throughout time, Korean swords have a very particular visual essence of their own.

Below is another I sold many years ago, it is a rather standard arsenal type of which I've seen dozens over the years. It is with a peened tang and lanyard hole. No hole in the guard. I think the hole is a feature in the swords of rank and the guard becomes more decorative as the ranks go higher.

Although I have not handled Jim's sword, I suspect from the images that is likely an NCO or low-ranking officer's sword, potentially one helping with or presiding over such an arsenal that the below sword came from. I do not say this with absolute certainty, simply what I feel when I look at defining characteristics and the little I have learnt about the rank system.

[Copycat]

Hello Gavin,

The overall design of the first one looks like a tachi actually. However, he fishskin on the scabbard, the fittings and the hole in de hilt are similar to Chinese swords.

The overall design of the others are similar to a dao and jian.

Point is, the details or the combination of details makes it different.

Same for the saber of Jim. Your observations are details. A careless person might mistake this as a katana.

The visual essence of Korean swords varies greatly in my opinion and information or examples are rare.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Copycat

Hello Gavin,

The overall design of the first one looks like a tachi actually. However, he fishskin on the scabbard, the fittings and the hole in de hilt are similar to Chinese swords.

The overall design of the others are similar to a dao and jian.

Point is, the details or the combination of details makes it different.

Same for the saber of Jim. Your observations are details. A careless person might mistake this as a katana.

The visual essence of Korean swords varies greatly in my opinion and information or examples are rare.

Hello Copycat,

Exactly, the point is the details. The observation of the details in context leads to a better understanding.

The one you refer to as like Chinese dao for example, it sat in a Japanese collection, the only Korean sword in a large important entirely Japanese collection. The owner even classified it as a type of Japanese sword. There are three different points of view where it was concerned, your's, his and mine... you could probably poll 1000 people and the balance of answer might all sway to China or Japan???

The visual essense I refer to is just that which you note, its own unique essense of cultural blends/influences that is Korea's own personal style.

Indeed a great deal of Korean swords are lost to time and occupation, yet many have survived and there are more out there than is thought of at face value.

The same is said for information, it is housed within Korean and other museums, EQUALLY importantly though, as was in the last year shared with me, there have been 9 publications specifically on the subject of Korean Weapons, Boots being the oldest.

Back to your sword though, and with consideration to the complexities of details that you are aware of, what specifically leads you to think/feel that it maybe a Korean sword?

[Copycat]

Hello Gavin,

Yes. back to my sword. Please excuse for my use of terms.

The details which suggests Korean origin:
- the guard / tsuba
- almos double edged tip / false edge/ yelman
- two hangers on the scabbard. I think it is missing one.

More ambiguous details:
- crude lamination. I also can't see Harmon nor traces of San mai.
- really crude fuller. Not crisp.
- no fittings like habaki and seppu
- all leather wrappings

Thank you for your interesting posts and pictures by the way.

[Jim McDougall]

Given the historic complexities of the geopolitical flux of China, Korea and Japan it is easy to understand that classification conundrums are inevitable, and there are many factors in these dynamics.

Korea was occupied by China 1910-1945, with the Japanese occupation during the WWII debacle. The weapons of Japan were early influenced from China evolving into the unmistakable extraordinary character of Japanese blades.
There were of course times where the Japanese exported blades into China (Ming into early Qing) but I am not well versed enough in this history to detail this, but just mention it to illustrate the cross influence dynamics present.

It is important to note that most writers who have sought the discuss the development and forms of hilt styles have avoided the inclusion of blades in classifying regional, national or period associated with the hilts focused on in their discussion. The reason for this (as often explained) is that the hilts have their own particular character and features, while blades were often obtained through trade or other means and often exchanged.

This would certainly be the case with Korean swords of course, so the hilts and scabbards would be the primarily identifying factor. With the situation of 'blended' influences, nuances and features melded together from all the areas and cultures described, I am unclear on exactly how these elements have formed a 'distinctive' or personal Korean 'style', especially given the many variations that, without exact provenance, are presumed to be Korean, yet that classification is contested.

One key element I have noticed is the 'tsuba' ( noting the variance of term for these guards on Japanese and Chinese swords with varying terms)...in the case of my example and Copycat's with the rounded aperture in the guard. This seems a feature which in my limited exposure to Korean swords, seems to be characteristically Korean?
Also the octagonal guard shape, again seems common to Korean swords.

Can anyone say more on these distinct holes in the guard? what is it for? It seems I have seen similar on a Japanese tsuba, but more of an anomaly.
The octagonal shape seems the be from Chinese influence (Eight Trigram symbolism?).

As noted, few works on Korean swords, the only reference to them in the west in earlier years was (as mentioned) "Korean Weapons and Armor" (J.L.Boots, Dec. 1934, 'Transactions of the Royal Asiatic Society"). This, like the similarly formatted monograph on Chinese weapons from the 1940s, deals only with ancient weaponry, with no information on more modern forms.

And we thought identifying the sword styles of the Indian subcontinent was tough.

[Copycat]

Hello Jim,

The shape of the tsuba might represent the hexagram of I Ching and the holes the dots of Yin Yang.

I Ching or Yeok Gyeong (역경) had great influence in Korean history. The symbols on the flags of Korea and Joseon signifies it's importance.

Edit:
The shape could indeed be the Eight Trigrams of I ching.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Copycat

Hello Jim,

The shape of the tsuba might represent the hexagram of I Ching and the holes the dots of Yin Yang.

I Ching or Yeok Gyeong (역경) had great influence in Korean history. The symbols on the flags of Korea and Joseon signifies it's importance.

Edit:
The shape could indeed be the Eight Trigrams of I ching.

Well noted Copycat!
That was what I was suggesting regarding the Eight Trigrams symbol, as seen on this Ba Gwa dadao with this symbol.As China was occupying Korea in years 1910-1945 this seems to carry out the connection, though this dao is of course far earlier, probably to that rebellion in 1814 (Rodell).