Mysore Dagger Inscription Help

Mare Rosu · 7th January 2005, 07:34 PM

This Dagger is now in my possession

The following information was "pulled" from last year old forum.
I would like to reestablish this thread so as to decipher the inscriptions.
Ian and BI , as well as Radu I need your help on this!

Quote
W beautiful dagger.
The attribution of this dagger to Tipu Sultan is somewhat confused by the description of the piece. The Royal Mysore Armory was never controlled by Tipu Sultan, but rather the Maharaja of Mysore.

Tipu's father, Hyder Ali, was head of the Maharaja's army. Tipu and his father took exception to British rule and led several uprisings against the British. While the Maharaja continued to "rule" in Mysore, Tipu set up his palace at Seringhapatan, about 10 miles outside Mysore. He coined his own currency and manufactured his own weapons, some of which were specifically designed by Tipu. It was this citadel that the British -- including Wellesley (later the Duke of Wellington) -- stormed, and Tipu was killed in its defense.

I believe this knife is more likely from the property of the Maharaja of Mysore. It bears none of the motifs that Tipu used (such as the tiger), and the armory mark is not consistent with Tipu having commissioned the piece. The writing on the blade does appear to be Kanada.

Ian.

[This message has been edited by Ian (edited 08-28-2004).]

IP: Logged

BI
Member posted 09-02-2004 05:43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ian:
The attribution of this dagger to Tipu Sultan is somewhat confused by the description of the piece. The Royal Mysore Armory was never controlled by Tipu Sultan, but rather the Maharaja of Mysore.
Ians assessment seems borne from a keen eye and is very accurate, in that this piece is not directly from the ‘Tipu’ armoury, but rather from the armoury of Mysore. Sellers use the term ‘Tipu’ unscrupulously to attract attention, and I don’t think this done in ignorance.
The script is indeed Kannada and I can provide a brief history of the armoury and the pieces it contained.
After Tipu’s defeat at Seringapatum, the armoury was dispersed as spoils and divided amongst the officers in charge. The best and the most historical were given as gifts to the leading officers and the regent and brought back to England. The land that comprised the Mysore state was divided between the East India Company and the Nizam of Hyderabad. The throne of mysore was restored to the original Hindu dynasty (usurped by Tipus father) by the English and a 5 year old heir of the Wadiyar family became the new Maharaja, under tutorage and annually funded by the Company.
One of the tasks appointed the royal family was to rebuild the palace and restore the wealth and armoury. This was continued during the reigns of the following descendants. However, the presence of certain earlier pieces (17th-18thC) imply that many items were probably handed back from the Company after seringapatum to form the nucleus of the new armoury and a stable beginnings for the new Maharaja to add to. In this, we can loosely attribute a ‘Tipu’ link but as we question pieces taken during the siege and fallen around the Sultans body by his elite guard, so we should be even more wary of pieces handed back afterwards. A quote, shortly after the conquest of Seringapatum would give an idea of the amount of weapons taken – ‘There were taken 929 pieces of cannon, including mortars and howitzers, 424000 iron balls, 520000 lbs of powder and 99000 stand if arms, whilst in the magazines and foundaries was found all manner of warlike munition in the same proportion.’
The Mysore armoury still exists, and many pieces sold from the dispersal of the Tanjore armoury in 1878 (?) found its way here. However, many pieces were sold of over the last few decades and taken all over the world. The style of these pieces were very specific (chiselled amalgamations of ancus/axes etc), although, like this dagger, some were more standardised. About 10 years ago, a large collection was sold in London that came straight from the armoury and these were the best of their kind. Many pieces were indeed early and all held this same script. The script itself (from recordings, not my own translations) held the words ‘Sri Krishna’, followed by a series of numbers. Some held a short description of the weapon eg ‘hidden dagger’ or hidden axe’, ‘big dagger’ etc. These inscriptions were thought to be added later and the ‘Sri Krishna’ is normally attributed to Krishnaraja Wadiyar 3rd. The pieces from this armoury were never of the quality as its surrounding areas ie Tipus original armoury or Tanjore, as the armoury was rebuilt during a relatively peaceful time (after occupation). Tipu’s taste led to a much higher quality, even in the fairly municipal pieces. The Mysore armoury has been shut from a short while but the armoury, as far as I know still exists and is normally open to the public.
Actually Tipu pieces do exist and occasionally surface onto the market. Collectors seem more wary now as quality and true provenance is paramount to any serious collection. Loose attributions from small dealers are normally ignored and tend only to catch people unaware across the internet, where a piece cannot be held and scant descriptions and clever photography are all you can go by. Very recently, Tipus bedchamber sword was sold in London. This sword had a double provenance, in that it was found in Tipus bedchamber (by tradition, a different sword was brought from his armoury to his bedchamber every night). This sword was handed to General Baird (an important attribution in itself), who spent time in Tipus dungeons and, after returning to England, came back to India to lead the storming of Tipu’s capital. The sword remained in his family (in Scotland) until recently. This sword lacked the ‘tiger’ motif normally associated with Tipu swords, but held pious inscriptions inlaid into the hilt. The scabbard, however, held a border of ‘bubri’ stripes, inherently attributed to pieces from Tipu’s armoury. The blade was straight and of European style, and was fully inscribed on presentation to Baird in 1799. Whilst likened to relatively normal tulwars, it held a real presence and fetched a high price by a Mysore businessman who wanted to return the sword to its ‘true home.’

Radu Transylvanicus · 9th January 2005, 09:56 AM

Knock ... knock ... Rivkin, Ariel, JensNorlunde, Shapsegh , BI, erlikhan , eftihis . c`mon , step up to the plate with the translation ...

B.I · 9th January 2005, 09:21 PM

i've been in touch with mare rosu privately but thought to offer some of the information here as well.
this dagger is indeed from the mysore armoury and the inscription is kannada script. i cannot give a precise translation, but this was a series of inscriptions, all almost identical and without a doubt inscribed at the same time. in the early 1990s, a load of them were translated. all held the words 'sri krishna' which refers to Krishnaraja Wadiyar 3rd of mysore. then follows a series of inventory numbers and a short description of the piece (eg hidden dagger, big dagger etc). the pieces in the present mysore armoury show this inscription, as do the pieces that left there just over 10 years ago.
the maharaja decided to sell a quantity of weapons from the armoury (i believe they were owned by the state, and not himself). these weapons were transported from mysore to dehli, where they were held by an arms dealer. the collection consisted of around 700 pieces, 300 of which were bought by an english dealer and transported to england. the whole collection was then sold to an australian businessman/collector and then, for some unknown reason, bought back a short while late by the same englishman. a small quantity remained in australia, whilst the rest (bar a few pieces) went into auction. before the auction, the pieces were translated. an indirect source told me the translations were done at SOAS but can only speculate this. either way, the pieces sold at auction and dispersed. last year, the remaining australian pieces were sold into auction, and this dagger was part of the sale. i kno wthis information, as i researched it a while ago, when i bought a piece from the same collection, with an almost identical inscription.
attributions to a british museum are rubbish, and any tipu affiliation is purely speculative. we can confirm its palce at mysore, and its attribution to Krishnaraja Wadiyar 3rd. before that is lost in history. (note, the pieces going to englnd first and then australia came from a pretty direct source. another version told was that some went from dehli to england and some from dehli to australia)
an interesting note, that mare rosu bought the piece in england, which meant the dagger went - mysore>dehli>england>australia>england>southern america.
a definately well travelled piece.

B.I · 30th July 2006, 09:51 PM

hi gene,
ahem, a year and a half later!!
one of the words is unknown. is there any part of the word that is not shown in the image? maybe it is short for the english word 'number' but it wasnt common for kannada to incorporate english words. but, if it was wodeyar 3rd it is refering to (popularly agreed theory) then he was placed on the throne under the british rule, so maybe it is. other inscriptions have included a descriptive term of the piece itself, so maybe it was poorly written and means something else.
no translation should be taken literally, and 2 independant (or better 3!) opinions should always be used to get an overall average.
my translater is not a linguist, but a art historian whose mother tongue is kannada. maybe someone that studies old texts, and used to its differences could help more.

Mare Rosu · 30th July 2006, 11:13 PM

Well now MR. B.I. What a pleasant surprise!

I do appreciate you efforts. The way you displayed the information is just outstanding. I had just about given up on the inscription/translation.
Dr. Ann is also working on the dagger as well as the inscription and what she comes up with I will post it here with her permission.
Now on a personal note is there anything you do not know? I am of course referring to the original writeup/information on the dagger and now you come up with the translation, truly amazing detective work on your part. You know more about my stuff than I do! and also more than the seller( to me ) of the dagger

.
I again offer my services to you at anytime (wash your car, sweep your floors ). You sir have made my day.

Gene

B.I · 31st July 2006, 10:17 AM

shucks, i'm blushing

if i ever find myself driving past the deep south i may take you up on the car wash, but keep your sponge dry as its a long way from london!
my friend is here for a very short time. the word i have labelled as 'NUM?' confused him as it didnt make sense. could you have a close look at the blade and see if there is part of it missing, that doesnt show up in the image.
sometimes blades are cleaned around the inscription, and re-etched and so the edges of the lettering fade away.
always worth a go.

Mare Rosu · 31st July 2006, 06:45 PM

OK B.I.
Latest pictures of the Dagger I call Mysore.
Dr. Ann supplied them and hope you can use them.
Now stop reading this and get to work!

Gene

Radu Transylvanicus · 31st July 2006, 07:51 PM

Wow, after a year and a half, huh ?

You gotta love persistence and this kind of tenacious spirit! Cant help it!

Mare Rosu · 31st July 2006, 10:47 PM

B.I.
This is a large blowup of the NUM? section of the inscription.
I changed it to black and white to see it if helped, I think it did a little.
Anyway I "think" I can make out some more of the inscription. I was going to place a pointer on the picture but think it would interferer with the picture.

Radu thank you for your input on the dagger I call Mysore.
Yes it was a long time in coming, but coming it is, and at my age every day is a new day and I am just glad to be alive. However I now have an exercise program and it only take 10 minutes a day to increase my life span 5 years!

Gene

B.I · 31st July 2006, 10:57 PM

hi gene,
i think you will outlive us all - you cant stop a determined man!!
yes, the image does show more of that word, but i have a feeling he was looking for more. i will show it to him (in 2/3 weeks time when he visits me again) but i dont feel the slight additions will help.
i am afraid the answers may yet unfold themselves, but from a different linguist - one more versed in old text.

7th January 2005, 07:34 PM	#1
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	Mysore Dagger Inscription Help This Dagger is now in my possession The following information was "pulled" from last year old forum. I would like to reestablish this thread so as to decipher the inscriptions. Ian and BI , as well as Radu I need your help on this! Quote W beautiful dagger. The attribution of this dagger to Tipu Sultan is somewhat confused by the description of the piece. The Royal Mysore Armory was never controlled by Tipu Sultan, but rather the Maharaja of Mysore. Tipu's father, Hyder Ali, was head of the Maharaja's army. Tipu and his father took exception to British rule and led several uprisings against the British. While the Maharaja continued to "rule" in Mysore, Tipu set up his palace at Seringhapatan, about 10 miles outside Mysore. He coined his own currency and manufactured his own weapons, some of which were specifically designed by Tipu. It was this citadel that the British -- including Wellesley (later the Duke of Wellington) -- stormed, and Tipu was killed in its defense. I believe this knife is more likely from the property of the Maharaja of Mysore. It bears none of the motifs that Tipu used (such as the tiger), and the armory mark is not consistent with Tipu having commissioned the piece. The writing on the blade does appear to be Kanada. Ian. [This message has been edited by Ian (edited 08-28-2004).] IP: Logged BI Member posted 09-02-2004 05:43 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [QUOTE]Originally posted by Ian: The attribution of this dagger to Tipu Sultan is somewhat confused by the description of the piece. The Royal Mysore Armory was never controlled by Tipu Sultan, but rather the Maharaja of Mysore. Ians assessment seems borne from a keen eye and is very accurate, in that this piece is not directly from the ‘Tipu’ armoury, but rather from the armoury of Mysore. Sellers use the term ‘Tipu’ unscrupulously to attract attention, and I don’t think this done in ignorance. The script is indeed Kannada and I can provide a brief history of the armoury and the pieces it contained. After Tipu’s defeat at Seringapatum, the armoury was dispersed as spoils and divided amongst the officers in charge. The best and the most historical were given as gifts to the leading officers and the regent and brought back to England. The land that comprised the Mysore state was divided between the East India Company and the Nizam of Hyderabad. The throne of mysore was restored to the original Hindu dynasty (usurped by Tipus father) by the English and a 5 year old heir of the Wadiyar family became the new Maharaja, under tutorage and annually funded by the Company. One of the tasks appointed the royal family was to rebuild the palace and restore the wealth and armoury. This was continued during the reigns of the following descendants. However, the presence of certain earlier pieces (17th-18thC) imply that many items were probably handed back from the Company after seringapatum to form the nucleus of the new armoury and a stable beginnings for the new Maharaja to add to. In this, we can loosely attribute a ‘Tipu’ link but as we question pieces taken during the siege and fallen around the Sultans body by his elite guard, so we should be even more wary of pieces handed back afterwards. A quote, shortly after the conquest of Seringapatum would give an idea of the amount of weapons taken – ‘There were taken 929 pieces of cannon, including mortars and howitzers, 424000 iron balls, 520000 lbs of powder and 99000 stand if arms, whilst in the magazines and foundaries was found all manner of warlike munition in the same proportion.’ The Mysore armoury still exists, and many pieces sold from the dispersal of the Tanjore armoury in 1878 (?) found its way here. However, many pieces were sold of over the last few decades and taken all over the world. The style of these pieces were very specific (chiselled amalgamations of ancus/axes etc), although, like this dagger, some were more standardised. About 10 years ago, a large collection was sold in London that came straight from the armoury and these were the best of their kind. Many pieces were indeed early and all held this same script. The script itself (from recordings, not my own translations) held the words ‘Sri Krishna’, followed by a series of numbers. Some held a short description of the weapon eg ‘hidden dagger’ or hidden axe’, ‘big dagger’ etc. These inscriptions were thought to be added later and the ‘Sri Krishna’ is normally attributed to Krishnaraja Wadiyar 3rd. The pieces from this armoury were never of the quality as its surrounding areas ie Tipus original armoury or Tanjore, as the armoury was rebuilt during a relatively peaceful time (after occupation). Tipu’s taste led to a much higher quality, even in the fairly municipal pieces. The Mysore armoury has been shut from a short while but the armoury, as far as I know still exists and is normally open to the public. Actually Tipu pieces do exist and occasionally surface onto the market. Collectors seem more wary now as quality and true provenance is paramount to any serious collection. Loose attributions from small dealers are normally ignored and tend only to catch people unaware across the internet, where a piece cannot be held and scant descriptions and clever photography are all you can go by. Very recently, Tipus bedchamber sword was sold in London. This sword had a double provenance, in that it was found in Tipus bedchamber (by tradition, a different sword was brought from his armoury to his bedchamber every night). This sword was handed to General Baird (an important attribution in itself), who spent time in Tipus dungeons and, after returning to England, came back to India to lead the storming of Tipu’s capital. The sword remained in his family (in Scotland) until recently. This sword lacked the ‘tiger’ motif normally associated with Tipu swords, but held pious inscriptions inlaid into the hilt. The scabbard, however, held a border of ‘bubri’ stripes, inherently attributed to pieces from Tipu’s armoury. The blade was straight and of European style, and was fully inscribed on presentation to Baird in 1799. Whilst likened to relatively normal tulwars, it held a real presence and fetched a high price by a Mysore businessman who wanted to return the sword to its ‘true home.’ Attached Images Last edited by Mare Rosu; 7th January 2005 at 08:25 PM.

9th January 2005, 09:21 PM	#3
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	inscription i've been in touch with mare rosu privately but thought to offer some of the information here as well. this dagger is indeed from the mysore armoury and the inscription is kannada script. i cannot give a precise translation, but this was a series of inscriptions, all almost identical and without a doubt inscribed at the same time. in the early 1990s, a load of them were translated. all held the words 'sri krishna' which refers to Krishnaraja Wadiyar 3rd of mysore. then follows a series of inventory numbers and a short description of the piece (eg hidden dagger, big dagger etc). the pieces in the present mysore armoury show this inscription, as do the pieces that left there just over 10 years ago. the maharaja decided to sell a quantity of weapons from the armoury (i believe they were owned by the state, and not himself). these weapons were transported from mysore to dehli, where they were held by an arms dealer. the collection consisted of around 700 pieces, 300 of which were bought by an english dealer and transported to england. the whole collection was then sold to an australian businessman/collector and then, for some unknown reason, bought back a short while late by the same englishman. a small quantity remained in australia, whilst the rest (bar a few pieces) went into auction. before the auction, the pieces were translated. an indirect source told me the translations were done at SOAS but can only speculate this. either way, the pieces sold at auction and dispersed. last year, the remaining australian pieces were sold into auction, and this dagger was part of the sale. i kno wthis information, as i researched it a while ago, when i bought a piece from the same collection, with an almost identical inscription. attributions to a british museum are rubbish, and any tipu affiliation is purely speculative. we can confirm its palce at mysore, and its attribution to Krishnaraja Wadiyar 3rd. before that is lost in history. (note, the pieces going to englnd first and then australia came from a pretty direct source. another version told was that some went from dehli to england and some from dehli to australia) an interesting note, that mare rosu bought the piece in england, which meant the dagger went - mysore>dehli>england>australia>england>southern america. a definately well travelled piece.

30th July 2006, 09:51 PM	#4
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi gene, ahem, a year and a half later!! one of the words is unknown. is there any part of the word that is not shown in the image? maybe it is short for the english word 'number' but it wasnt common for kannada to incorporate english words. but, if it was wodeyar 3rd it is refering to (popularly agreed theory) then he was placed on the throne under the british rule, so maybe it is. other inscriptions have included a descriptive term of the piece itself, so maybe it was poorly written and means something else. no translation should be taken literally, and 2 independant (or better 3!) opinions should always be used to get an overall average. my translater is not a linguist, but a art historian whose mother tongue is kannada. maybe someone that studies old texts, and used to its differences could help more. Attached Images

30th July 2006, 11:13 PM	#5
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	B I to the rescue! Well now MR. B.I. What a pleasant surprise! I do appreciate you efforts. The way you displayed the information is just outstanding. I had just about given up on the inscription/translation. Dr. Ann is also working on the dagger as well as the inscription and what she comes up with I will post it here with her permission. Now on a personal note is there anything you do not know? I am of course referring to the original writeup/information on the dagger and now you come up with the translation, truly amazing detective work on your part. You know more about my stuff than I do! and also more than the seller( to me ) of the dagger . I again offer my services to you at anytime (wash your car, sweep your floors ). You sir have made my day. Gene

31st July 2006, 06:45 PM	#7
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	Mysore dagger picture updates OK B.I. Latest pictures of the Dagger I call Mysore. Dr. Ann supplied them and hope you can use them. Now stop reading this and get to work! Gene Attached Images

9th January 2005, 09:56 AM	#2
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Knock ... knock ... Rivkin, Ariel, JensNorlunde, Shapsegh , BI, erlikhan , eftihis . c`mon , step up to the plate with the translation ...

31st July 2006, 10:17 AM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	shucks, i'm blushing if i ever find myself driving past the deep south i may take you up on the car wash, but keep your sponge dry as its a long way from london! my friend is here for a very short time. the word i have labelled as 'NUM?' confused him as it didnt make sense. could you have a close look at the blade and see if there is part of it missing, that doesnt show up in the image. sometimes blades are cleaned around the inscription, and re-etched and so the edges of the lettering fade away. always worth a go.

31st July 2006, 07:51 PM	#8
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Wow, after a year and a half, huh ? You gotta love persistence and this kind of tenacious spirit! Cant help it!

31st July 2006, 10:47 PM	#9
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	Large picture of inscription B.I. This is a large blowup of the NUM? section of the inscription. I changed it to black and white to see it if helped, I think it did a little. Anyway I "think" I can make out some more of the inscription. I was going to place a pointer on the picture but think it would interferer with the picture. Radu thank you for your input on the dagger I call Mysore. Yes it was a long time in coming, but coming it is, and at my age every day is a new day and I am just glad to be alive. However I now have an exercise program and it only take 10 minutes a day to increase my life span 5 years! Gene Attached Images

31st July 2006, 10:57 PM	#10
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi gene, i think you will outlive us all - you cant stop a determined man!! yes, the image does show more of that word, but i have a feeling he was looking for more. i will show it to him (in 2/3 weeks time when he visits me again) but i dont feel the slight additions will help. i am afraid the answers may yet unfold themselves, but from a different linguist - one more versed in old text.