Large Jambiya for comment

kahnjar1 · 11th August 2009, 04:03 AM

Just finished on epray and on its way to a new home down under. A large Western Arabian Jambiya from from Hijaz/Asir region and dating to the late 19th or early 20th century. Overall 560mm or 22'' depending on way of thinking. Pics from seller.
Regards Stuart

Nathaniel · 11th August 2009, 06:17 AM

Nice new piece, Stu!

Thanks for sharing!

Michael Blalock · 11th August 2009, 07:05 PM

Nice complete example.

colin henshaw · 11th August 2009, 07:52 PM

Very good example...

Atlantia · 12th August 2009, 07:07 PM

Hey Stu.
What a beast that is!
I'd love to get 'hands on' with it and feel what the weight and balance is like.
Congratulations. Hope you'll post some more pictures when it arrives.

Regards
Gene

kahnjar1 · 12th August 2009, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hey Stu.
What a beast that is!
I'd love to get 'hands on' with it and feel what the weight and balance is like.
Congratulations. Hope you'll post some more pictures when it arrives.

Regards
Gene

You will have to make a trip to the "colonies" at some stage. Will certainly post more pics when it arrives.
Stu

graeme gt · 12th August 2009, 11:47 PM

Hi Stuart ,i think it is Wahabite i have one very similar will post pics tomorrow when battery is charged .

kahnjar1 · 13th August 2009, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graeme gt

Hi Stuart ,i think it is Wahabite i have one very similar will post pics tomorrow when battery is charged .

Hi Graeme, Wahabite is only one of the tribes who use/used these big blades. There are many West Arabian tribes who used them I have always regarded the term Wahabite as one used by collectors to describe this type. They are more correctly called either Sabak or Sabiki. Refer Elgood Arabian Arms and Armor.
Regards Stuart

graeme gt · 13th August 2009, 08:51 PM

Hi Stuart ,i bow to your superior knowledge here are my two hope you find them of intrest cheers G .

TVV · 13th August 2009, 08:55 PM

Very nice acquistion Stuart!

Graeme, the lower and smaller one of your jambiyas has been identified as coming from Asir, which prior to the Saudi conquest, was part of Yemen. So actually, this jambiya likely belonged to someone whow as resisting the wahabits. Assuming of course it dates back to the first half of the 20th century.

regards,
Teodor

graeme gt · 13th August 2009, 09:02 PM

Big one is 26" long

Atlantia · 13th August 2009, 11:38 PM

Interesting contrast between these similar pieces.

I notice Stuarts does not have the central rib, and I've been trying to see if the blade has a thickened tip?
Also Graemes, whilst having the central rib, has incised decoration cut into it, similar to that on Stu's.

Are these two similar but distinct 'styles' indicative of specific respective areas, or timeframes, or are their differences purely 'coincidental' manufacturing choices of their makers?

kahnjar1 · 14th August 2009, 08:48 AM

Hi Graeme and Gene,
The lower one is very similar to one of mine, which according to Elgood is from the Asir/Hijaz region, and dating to the 20th century, Bani Malik and Bani Shahr Tribes.
The upper one appears to be from the Hijaz region, and my guess would be 20th century.
As far as the blades of these particular long bladed Jambiyas are concerned, I have always believed that the flat blades are of earlier vintage than the ribbed ones, but that is only my opinion based on the viewed age of the total piece. I have used as "rule of thumb" that flat blade is 19th or very early 20th century and ribbed a little later. I have nothing concrete to base this on other than gut instinct. Perhaps others here can elaborate.
Nice pieces Graeme.

Regards Stuart

Michael Blalock · 14th August 2009, 12:59 PM

I have assumed the ribbed blade vs. flat blade is a regional issue, with the flat blades coming from the North and the ribbed blades coming from closer to the Yemen but that is just speculation too.

kahnjar1 · 14th August 2009, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Blalock

I have assumed the ribbed blade vs. flat blade is a regional issue, with the flat blades coming from the North and the ribbed blades coming from closer to the Yemen but that is just speculation too.

Quite possible I suppose, although Elgoods book shows both blade types as Asir/Hijaz regions, the overall area covering quite a large chunk of the Western Arabian coastline.
Thought the pic might be of interest. Its from Elgood book and shows these Jambiya worn by some of the "gentlemen"
Regards Stuart

Oriental-Arms · 14th August 2009, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Graeme and Gene,
The lower one is very similar to one of mine, which according to Elgood is from the Asir/Hijaz region, and dating to the 20th century, Bani Malik and Bani Shahr Tribes.
The upper one appears to be from the Hijaz region, and my guess would be 20th century.
As far as the blades of these particular long bladed Jambiyas are concerned, I have always believed that the flat blades are of earlier vintage than the ribbed ones, but that is only my opinion based on the viewed age of the total piece. I have used as "rule of thumb" that flat blade is 19th or very early 20th century and ribbed a little later. I have nothing concrete to base this on other than gut instinct. Perhaps others here can elaborate.
Nice pieces Graeme.

Regards Stuart

I am afraid I have a slightly different opinion. From my experience, the ribbed blades are of better quality and earlier to the flat blade, but I also can not substantiate it.

Lew · 14th August 2009, 04:27 PM

I agree with Artzi on this forged ribbed blades need a high skill level to create the flat ones seem to appear after WW1 Stuart's piece seems to fit in between 1920-40. I have a similar one but a bit more worn. I included a pic of a large jamibiya with a 24" blade whick I am pretty sure is late 19th century?

trajan · 14th August 2009, 04:34 PM

I agree with Oriental Arms.

I had 4 of these. The largest I have sold and is not pictured. It had a flat blade and no fullers. Exterior looked the same but blade was far inferior to the top 2 pictured.

The two larger pictured both have fullers/ribs and fine quality blades.

The bottom piece I believe would have been a boy's as its very small for these. It is flat with poorer decoration and weak fullers .

I've always enjoyed these big types too!

matt

Lew · 14th August 2009, 04:45 PM

Some of these jambiya have a small zipper compartment on the inside of the belt mine has a YKK zipper.
In January 1946 the company registered the now famous YKK trademark. A major technological change came in 1950, when the company purchased a chain machine from the U.S. that allowed the automation of the zipper making process. Previously, YKK zippers were made by hand, and hence had an superior quality compared to zippers of water.

So it seems that a lot of these Asir jambiya we see today are from 1940s-60 with some older ones popping up now and then that are pre 1918.

Lew

kahnjar1 · 15th August 2009, 06:00 AM

Thanks Artzi for coming in on this discussion. I have no doubt that you have done more study than the rest of us as this is your business. We can only be guided by publications, such as they are, about these weapons. I can see that flat blades would be easier (and cheaper) to forge than ribbed ones. From that point of view, my train of thought was that the EARLIER ones would be flat as the forger would perhaps not been exposed to the technology required to make the ribbed version. I guess we will never know for certain but I am finding this discussion extremely interesting. As I have said before on this Forum, we are all still, and always will be, learning.
Just to add a little more, here are some pics of the rest of my long Jambiyas. The one with the "Sudanese type" hilt has been rehilted at some stage but the whole item shows good age, so it is not a recent happening.
Regards Stuart

Lew · 15th August 2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I can see that flat blades would be easier (and cheaper) to forge than ribbed ones. From that point of view, my train of thought was that the EARLIER ones would be flat as the forger would perhaps not been exposed to the technology required to make the ribbed version.
Regards Stuart

Stuart

Sorry but I think you have this backwards? The forged rib has was developed to help pop open chainmail links (armor piercing) which makes the technique quite old. The flat blade was easier to make and required less skill to produce and many newer smiths post 1900 just did not the skill to produce the forged rib. Maybe the technique was just lost as the older smiths died off and they and for some reason did not have an apprentice to pass it on to. After oil was discovered I'm pretty sure that the old art of blade forging started to die out because the sons of these old smiths could make more money in the different areas of the oil business and related areas.

Lew

kahnjar1 · 15th August 2009, 11:10 PM

Thanks Lew, and I see your reasoning. My thinking has been based on the apparent older look to flat bladed items I have come across.
Some of the (particularly) Yemeni items around even have the blade made in two halves and spot welded together. YUK!! Potential buyer beware!

Jeff Pringle · 16th August 2009, 03:05 PM

The forged-in ribs that Artzi is referring to should not be confused with the ground-in double fullers that are relatively common and very 20th century. The one jambiya of this type I’ve seen with a wootz blade was flat, neither ribbed nor fullered, and to confuse matters even more, was in a leather-covered scabbard with both authentic use-wear and bright plastic decorative trim. The Arabian peninsula is an unusual place, in that they had a very late surviving ethnographic weapons tradition and then a very rapid conversion to modern materials & decorative/tourist-grade blades - it makes for some interesting juxtapositions.

11th August 2009, 04:03 AM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Large Jambiya for comment Just finished on epray and on its way to a new home down under. A large Western Arabian Jambiya from from Hijaz/Asir region and dating to the late 19th or early 20th century. Overall 560mm or 22'' depending on way of thinking. Pics from seller. Regards Stuart Attached Images

13th August 2009, 08:51 PM	#9
graeme gt Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 97	Hi Stuart ,i bow to your superior knowledge here are my two hope you find them of intrest cheers G . Attached Images

13th August 2009, 09:02 PM	#11
graeme gt Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 97	Big one is 26" long Attached Images

14th August 2009, 04:27 PM	#17
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I agree with Artzi on this forged ribbed blades need a high skill level to create the flat ones seem to appear after WW1 Stuart's piece seems to fit in between 1920-40. I have a similar one but a bit more worn. I included a pic of a large jamibiya with a 24" blade whick I am pretty sure is late 19th century? Attached Images

14th August 2009, 04:34 PM	#18
trajan Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 68	jambiyas I agree with Oriental Arms. I had 4 of these. The largest I have sold and is not pictured. It had a flat blade and no fullers. Exterior looked the same but blade was far inferior to the top 2 pictured. The two larger pictured both have fullers/ribs and fine quality blades. The bottom piece I believe would have been a boy's as its very small for these. It is flat with poorer decoration and weak fullers . I've always enjoyed these big types too! matt Attached Images

11th August 2009, 06:17 AM	#2
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Nice new piece, Stu! Thanks for sharing!

11th August 2009, 07:05 PM	#3
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	Nice complete example.

11th August 2009, 07:52 PM	#4
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Very good example...

12th August 2009, 07:07 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hey Stu. What a beast that is! I'd love to get 'hands on' with it and feel what the weight and balance is like. Congratulations. Hope you'll post some more pictures when it arrives. Regards Gene

12th August 2009, 11:47 PM	#7
graeme gt Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 97	Hi Stuart ,i think it is Wahabite i have one very similar will post pics tomorrow when battery is charged .

13th August 2009, 08:55 PM	#10
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,624	Very nice acquistion Stuart! Graeme, the lower and smaller one of your jambiyas has been identified as coming from Asir, which prior to the Saudi conquest, was part of Yemen. So actually, this jambiya likely belonged to someone whow as resisting the wahabits. Assuming of course it dates back to the first half of the 20th century. regards, Teodor

13th August 2009, 11:38 PM	#12
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Interesting contrast between these similar pieces. I notice Stuarts does not have the central rib, and I've been trying to see if the blade has a thickened tip? Also Graemes, whilst having the central rib, has incised decoration cut into it, similar to that on Stu's. Are these two similar but distinct 'styles' indicative of specific respective areas, or timeframes, or are their differences purely 'coincidental' manufacturing choices of their makers?

14th August 2009, 08:48 AM	#13
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Hi Graeme and Gene, The lower one is very similar to one of mine, which according to Elgood is from the Asir/Hijaz region, and dating to the 20th century, Bani Malik and Bani Shahr Tribes. The upper one appears to be from the Hijaz region, and my guess would be 20th century. As far as the blades of these particular long bladed Jambiyas are concerned, I have always believed that the flat blades are of earlier vintage than the ribbed ones, but that is only my opinion based on the viewed age of the total piece. I have used as "rule of thumb" that flat blade is 19th or very early 20th century and ribbed a little later. I have nothing concrete to base this on other than gut instinct. Perhaps others here can elaborate. Nice pieces Graeme. Regards Stuart

14th August 2009, 12:59 PM	#14
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	I have assumed the ribbed blade vs. flat blade is a regional issue, with the flat blades coming from the North and the ribbed blades coming from closer to the Yemen but that is just speculation too.

14th August 2009, 04:45 PM	#19
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Some of these jambiya have a small zipper compartment on the inside of the belt mine has a YKK zipper. In January 1946 the company registered the now famous YKK trademark. A major technological change came in 1950, when the company purchased a chain machine from the U.S. that allowed the automation of the zipper making process. Previously, YKK zippers were made by hand, and hence had an superior quality compared to zippers of water. So it seems that a lot of these Asir jambiya we see today are from 1940s-60 with some older ones popping up now and then that are pre 1918. Lew Attached Images

15th August 2009, 06:00 AM	#20
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Thanks Artzi for coming in on this discussion. I have no doubt that you have done more study than the rest of us as this is your business. We can only be guided by publications, such as they are, about these weapons. I can see that flat blades would be easier (and cheaper) to forge than ribbed ones. From that point of view, my train of thought was that the EARLIER ones would be flat as the forger would perhaps not been exposed to the technology required to make the ribbed version. I guess we will never know for certain but I am finding this discussion extremely interesting. As I have said before on this Forum, we are all still, and always will be, learning. Just to add a little more, here are some pics of the rest of my long Jambiyas. The one with the "Sudanese type" hilt has been rehilted at some stage but the whole item shows good age, so it is not a recent happening. Regards Stuart Attached Images

15th August 2009, 11:10 PM	#22
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Thanks Lew, and I see your reasoning. My thinking has been based on the apparent older look to flat bladed items I have come across. Some of the (particularly) Yemeni items around even have the blade made in two halves and spot welded together. YUK!! Potential buyer beware!

16th August 2009, 03:05 PM	#23
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	The forged-in ribs that Artzi is referring to should not be confused with the ground-in double fullers that are relatively common and very 20th century. The one jambiya of this type I’ve seen with a wootz blade was flat, neither ribbed nor fullered, and to confuse matters even more, was in a leather-covered scabbard with both authentic use-wear and bright plastic decorative trim. The Arabian peninsula is an unusual place, in that they had a very late surviving ethnographic weapons tradition and then a very rapid conversion to modern materials & decorative/tourist-grade blades - it makes for some interesting juxtapositions.