Keris Sajen - original vs. fakes

mariusgmioc · 10th February 2016, 08:10 PM

Hello,
As I am considering buying a Keris Sajen, I was surprised to find many recent made pieces claimed to be original, centuries old blades. Does anybody have any tips about how to avoid buying fakes? Any source of genuine antique Keris Sajen?
Regards,
Marius

A. G. Maisey · 10th February 2016, 08:45 PM

This is an opinion Marius, what I will now write is not something you will find in keris books.

Every keris sajen you see is genuine, doesn't matter if it was made yesterday, or made several hundred years ago.

Why?

Because they are still in use, still being made for the original, traditional purposes.

Here is a link to a page in my site where you can see a number of keris sajen, all of which are old. Some of these are very rare, very valuable pieces, which a couple of European museums have attempted to purchase.

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerissajen.html

Ordinary, run-of-the-mill keris sajen are not particularly expensive.

It is virtually impossible to estimate age based on style, because earlier styles have been copied in later periods. The head covering that is worn by the figure may give some guidance. Even in the case where somebody may understand how to estimate age based on material, there is no certainty that a KS made of old material is itself old, because often a KS is made from a damaged old piece of tosan aji.

If one understands material, and this is a skill that is very rare, combination of reading the material, together with reading overall wear and perceived age might be of assistance.

In other words, only a very great deal of experience might assist in identifying an old KS, and even then it is possible to be wrong.

Have a look at my page, have a look at the pics in Theo Alkema's "Iron Ancestors", compare what you want to buy with what you see in my site and in Theo's book.

mariusgmioc · 11th February 2016, 07:14 AM

Thank you very much for your quick reply!

Regarding the distinction between antique and new Keris Sajen, it is as I suspected, in the sense that it would be very difficult to distinguish them without a years long, hands-on experience, and as you said, even then it might be difficult.

However, it is good to know that even a recently made Keris Sajen would serve the same purpose and be equally genuine.

I am currently trying to get my hands of the book you mentioned but it is not easy to find.

Jean · 11th February 2016, 09:14 AM

Hello Marius,
You can find this book on the site "Ethnographic art books Leiden" for 60 Euros. The author shows the difference betveen old and recent pieces (which he calls fakes).
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 11th February 2016, 11:40 AM

Jean, Theo was writing about what he chose to call "Iron Ancestors", he was not writing only about keris sajen, but about a wide range of styles of talismanic weapons.

But be that as it may, when he went out on a limb and declared some items as fakes, he did include a number of items that could legitimately be termed "keris sajen" in his line-up of fakes.

It is a great pity that he did this, because it demonstrates a lack of understanding of the culture and needs of the common people of not only Jawa and the Old East Indies, but probably of all keris bearing societies.

He remarks on the proliferation of these "fakes" immediately after WWII, which again shows a lack of understanding of the needs of a people who had been through Japanese occupation, civil war, the struggle to free themselves from colonialism and to become a free nation.

The keris sajen may or may not be used in the "Bersih Desa" ceremony, but one thing is absolutely certain:- these small keris and other tosan aji do have a place in Javanese society as talismans, and people need talismans in times of uncertainty. I believe, but do not know, that the same may be found to be true in other keris bearing societies.

Then of course we have items that were never intended to be taken for other than what they were:- souvenirs. An item made in the form of an ethnographic object, but which is so different in its expression that it cannot possibly be taken as that ethnographic object can hardly be termed a "fake". The idea of "fake" implies an attempt to deceive. Souvenirs deceive nobody.

Theo produced a very nice book that deals with a form of tosan aji that has been pretty much over-looked. Theo himself is a very gentlemanly individual, and very learned in some fields. We all have the right to express our own opinions, and Theo expressed many of his in his book.

But the field of the keris, and its place within Javanese culture is a very specialised field, and this specialisation increases many fold when we address the Javanese obsession with talismans.

When a person --- not always a man --- carries a small keris or other talismanic blade he is in his mind linked to the Gunungan/Mt. Meru/ his ancestors. This conviction provides protection from the evils of the world in which he lives. The talismanic keris does not need to be a major work of art, it only needs to have had the ancestors called into it. There are a number of ways to do this, not all of which are a part of the process of production. The important thing is that the person who carries the talisman believes in its properties.

The cry of "fake" needs to be very carefully considered before it is ever spoken.

David · 11th February 2016, 07:24 PM

Iron Ancestors is not that difficult to locate. It is even available on Amazon.
I tend to side with Alan's take on so-called "fakes". Alkema seems to consider anything made in the 20th century (or at least post WWII) a fake. As Alan points out, the need for talisman keris in Indonesian societies has not disappeared in our modern era. Of the keris that Alkema discusses in his "Fakes" chapter i would say only a couple look like they were clearly created for a tourist market. But even one of those could be used for a talismanic purpose if it were dedicated to that end with correct intention.

A. G. Maisey · 11th February 2016, 08:36 PM

I have difficulty in going along with the "tourist" idea associated with physical keris-like objects, especially since the end of WWII.

In my experience more locals buy these keris-like confections than any tourists. In recent years, since maybe around 1990, sales of keris and other weapons to tourists is pretty much at a dead stop in Indonesia's tourist areas.

During the last 15 or so years tourism has fallen into a hole in Central Jawa, yeah, you still see the few adventurous foreigners wandering around Jogja and the nearby major attractions, but in Solo and other places in Central Jawa you can go weeks at a time without seeing another European face.

Bali is still big, of course, but you'd be flat out trying to even a find a keris or weapon for sale in Bali, and if you did get your driver to locate some for you, you sure wouldn't like to pay the prices asked. Then you need to get it past two Customs services. Not so easy in some countries.

I suppose we can still find tourist purchases of those things that have become unacceptable in many countries of the world, but the tourists buying them are from Jakarta and other places in Indonesia. Local tourists.

In fact, just about anything can be a talisman, if the holder of that talisman has full belief in it. So you get the situation where a dukun (shaman) will go to the market a buy the crappiest little piece of junk he can get cheap, if he's genuine he will call the powers into it, if he's not, he'll convince his client that he has called the powers into it, but either way that little keris-like object will finish up as somebody's treasured talisman.

Talismans are all about belief.

Quality of workmanship, high art, these things have nothing at all to do with talismans. Talismans in the form of small keris, or any other talismans.

David · 11th February 2016, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In fact, just about anything can be a talisman, if the holder of that talisman has full belief in it. So you get the situation where a dukun (shaman) will go to the market a buy the crappiest little piece of junk he can get cheap, if he's genuine he will call the powers into it, if he's not, he'll convince his client that he has called the powers into it, but either way that little keris-like object will finish up as somebody's treasured talisman.
Talismans are all about belief.

Alan, i believe what you are saying here is pretty much in line with what i have just said in my last post. I do understand where you are coming from with the word "tourist", however i am using the term more to describe items that find their way into export and are not necessarily conceived for indigenous use. I realize that you don't spend quite as much time on eBay as some of us do, but while the actual tourist trade may indeed be down in Jawa you will find that these type of items are virtually flooding the keris pages on eBay.

A. G. Maisey · 11th February 2016, 09:39 PM

Yes David, I am pretty much endorsing your remarks.

As for "tourist", well I guess we can have ebay tourists as well as real ones, and you're right I gave ebay cruising away years ago, for me its simply a waste of time for keris & etc --- but I do buy other stuff from ebay, just don't waste my time on keris krusin'.

David · 12th February 2016, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

As for "tourist", well I guess we can have ebay tourists as well as real ones, and you're right I gave ebay cruising away years ago, for me its simply a waste of time for keris & etc --- but I do buy other stuff from ebay, just don't waste my time on keris krusin'.

Well Alan, given what i suspect resides in your personal collection i would image there would be much reason for you to spend much time cruising there. However, some of us who are apt from time to time to buy ourselves a lottery ticket do sometimes entertain ourselves with the notion that we might find something sleeping there. Actually i would say that it pays off far more frequently than the lottery...which, i know, isn't saying much...

mariusgmioc · 12th February 2016, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Marius,
You can find this book on the site "Ethnographic art books Leiden" for 60 Euros. The author shows the difference betveen old and recent pieces (which he calls fakes).
Regards

Thank you for the tip! Just ordered it.

A. G. Maisey · 12th February 2016, 10:37 AM

I've actually seen a few decent finds come off ebay, but I just don't like trying to work things out from photos, its too easy to be wrong, and I really don't like losing money. I'm not in the position where I can recycle my errors and get my money back.

But re my personal collection, David you might be quite surprised to see the pieces I refuse to part with, they are mostly not at all princely, let alone the dhuwung of kings. I place a lot of value on things that have been given to me, things that have more or less found me, rather than me finding them, and keris of the common people. Yeah, there are few royal pieces too, but they're not locked in, whereas a number of seemingly very ordinary keris are permanent.

10th February 2016, 08:10 PM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Keris Sajen - original vs. fakes Hello, As I am considering buying a Keris Sajen, I was surprised to find many recent made pieces claimed to be original, centuries old blades. Does anybody have any tips about how to avoid buying fakes? Any source of genuine antique Keris Sajen? Regards, Marius

11th February 2016, 07:14 AM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Thank you Thank you very much for your quick reply! Regarding the distinction between antique and new Keris Sajen, it is as I suspected, in the sense that it would be very difficult to distinguish them without a years long, hands-on experience, and as you said, even then it might be difficult. However, it is good to know that even a recently made Keris Sajen would serve the same purpose and be equally genuine. I am currently trying to get my hands of the book you mentioned but it is not easy to find.

10th February 2016, 08:45 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	This is an opinion Marius, what I will now write is not something you will find in keris books. Every keris sajen you see is genuine, doesn't matter if it was made yesterday, or made several hundred years ago. Why? Because they are still in use, still being made for the original, traditional purposes. Here is a link to a page in my site where you can see a number of keris sajen, all of which are old. Some of these are very rare, very valuable pieces, which a couple of European museums have attempted to purchase. http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerissajen.html Ordinary, run-of-the-mill keris sajen are not particularly expensive. It is virtually impossible to estimate age based on style, because earlier styles have been copied in later periods. The head covering that is worn by the figure may give some guidance. Even in the case where somebody may understand how to estimate age based on material, there is no certainty that a KS made of old material is itself old, because often a KS is made from a damaged old piece of tosan aji. If one understands material, and this is a skill that is very rare, combination of reading the material, together with reading overall wear and perceived age might be of assistance. In other words, only a very great deal of experience might assist in identifying an old KS, and even then it is possible to be wrong. Have a look at my page, have a look at the pics in Theo Alkema's "Iron Ancestors", compare what you want to buy with what you see in my site and in Theo's book.

11th February 2016, 09:14 AM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Marius, You can find this book on the site "Ethnographic art books Leiden" for 60 Euros. The author shows the difference betveen old and recent pieces (which he calls fakes). Regards

11th February 2016, 11:40 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Jean, Theo was writing about what he chose to call "Iron Ancestors", he was not writing only about keris sajen, but about a wide range of styles of talismanic weapons. But be that as it may, when he went out on a limb and declared some items as fakes, he did include a number of items that could legitimately be termed "keris sajen" in his line-up of fakes. It is a great pity that he did this, because it demonstrates a lack of understanding of the culture and needs of the common people of not only Jawa and the Old East Indies, but probably of all keris bearing societies. He remarks on the proliferation of these "fakes" immediately after WWII, which again shows a lack of understanding of the needs of a people who had been through Japanese occupation, civil war, the struggle to free themselves from colonialism and to become a free nation. The keris sajen may or may not be used in the "Bersih Desa" ceremony, but one thing is absolutely certain:- these small keris and other tosan aji do have a place in Javanese society as talismans, and people need talismans in times of uncertainty. I believe, but do not know, that the same may be found to be true in other keris bearing societies. Then of course we have items that were never intended to be taken for other than what they were:- souvenirs. An item made in the form of an ethnographic object, but which is so different in its expression that it cannot possibly be taken as that ethnographic object can hardly be termed a "fake". The idea of "fake" implies an attempt to deceive. Souvenirs deceive nobody. Theo produced a very nice book that deals with a form of tosan aji that has been pretty much over-looked. Theo himself is a very gentlemanly individual, and very learned in some fields. We all have the right to express our own opinions, and Theo expressed many of his in his book. But the field of the keris, and its place within Javanese culture is a very specialised field, and this specialisation increases many fold when we address the Javanese obsession with talismans. When a person --- not always a man --- carries a small keris or other talismanic blade he is in his mind linked to the Gunungan/Mt. Meru/ his ancestors. This conviction provides protection from the evils of the world in which he lives. The talismanic keris does not need to be a major work of art, it only needs to have had the ancestors called into it. There are a number of ways to do this, not all of which are a part of the process of production. The important thing is that the person who carries the talisman believes in its properties. The cry of "fake" needs to be very carefully considered before it is ever spoken.

11th February 2016, 07:24 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	Iron Ancestors is not that difficult to locate. It is even available on Amazon. I tend to side with Alan's take on so-called "fakes". Alkema seems to consider anything made in the 20th century (or at least post WWII) a fake. As Alan points out, the need for talisman keris in Indonesian societies has not disappeared in our modern era. Of the keris that Alkema discusses in his "Fakes" chapter i would say only a couple look like they were clearly created for a tourist market. But even one of those could be used for a talismanic purpose if it were dedicated to that end with correct intention.

11th February 2016, 08:36 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	I have difficulty in going along with the "tourist" idea associated with physical keris-like objects, especially since the end of WWII. In my experience more locals buy these keris-like confections than any tourists. In recent years, since maybe around 1990, sales of keris and other weapons to tourists is pretty much at a dead stop in Indonesia's tourist areas. During the last 15 or so years tourism has fallen into a hole in Central Jawa, yeah, you still see the few adventurous foreigners wandering around Jogja and the nearby major attractions, but in Solo and other places in Central Jawa you can go weeks at a time without seeing another European face. Bali is still big, of course, but you'd be flat out trying to even a find a keris or weapon for sale in Bali, and if you did get your driver to locate some for you, you sure wouldn't like to pay the prices asked. Then you need to get it past two Customs services. Not so easy in some countries. I suppose we can still find tourist purchases of those things that have become unacceptable in many countries of the world, but the tourists buying them are from Jakarta and other places in Indonesia. Local tourists. In fact, just about anything can be a talisman, if the holder of that talisman has full belief in it. So you get the situation where a dukun (shaman) will go to the market a buy the crappiest little piece of junk he can get cheap, if he's genuine he will call the powers into it, if he's not, he'll convince his client that he has called the powers into it, but either way that little keris-like object will finish up as somebody's treasured talisman. Talismans are all about belief. Quality of workmanship, high art, these things have nothing at all to do with talismans. Talismans in the form of small keris, or any other talismans.

11th February 2016, 09:39 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Yes David, I am pretty much endorsing your remarks. As for "tourist", well I guess we can have ebay tourists as well as real ones, and you're right I gave ebay cruising away years ago, for me its simply a waste of time for keris & etc --- but I do buy other stuff from ebay, just don't waste my time on keris krusin'.

12th February 2016, 10:37 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	I've actually seen a few decent finds come off ebay, but I just don't like trying to work things out from photos, its too easy to be wrong, and I really don't like losing money. I'm not in the position where I can recycle my errors and get my money back. But re my personal collection, David you might be quite surprised to see the pieces I refuse to part with, they are mostly not at all princely, let alone the dhuwung of kings. I place a lot of value on things that have been given to me, things that have more or less found me, rather than me finding them, and keris of the common people. Yeah, there are few royal pieces too, but they're not locked in, whereas a number of seemingly very ordinary keris are permanent.