PI Kris for ID and Comments

[moose]

Been lurking for over a year. Thought I would post some photos and go through my collection one by one and see what I can learn about them.

This is my first kris. I bought it somewhere around 1980 or a little later.
Spotted it in a bucket of canes and umbrellas at the mall. It was visiting antique dealer day.

I'd like to know everything you could tell me about it. All comments welcome.
I've got my thoughts but want to here from you folks. Please be detailed if you will.

Thanks,
moose

[Tim Simmons]

Looks rather nice to me.

[Rick]

I'd say that this is an older blade but I'm not quite certain .
By Catos book this would be of Mindanao origin .
The gangya seems to have been broken and re-shaped .
The dress is fairly new except for the cockatua which appears to be of old marine ivory .
The asang asang/s are missing and were most likely not included in the remount .

[Ian]

Agree with Rick. 20th C. remount in the Maranao style of an older blade that has part of its gangya missing and no asang asang. Old small kakatua. Scabbard is 20th C. also.

[moose]

Ok,
Thanks for those thoughts. Here's a picture of the design in the end , down by the point.

Do these represent a trident? Supposedly to protect the owner??

How about some of you other Moro guys? Chip in if you would please.

moose

[moose]

I have another kris I wanted to post for comments and Id. Should I post it here or should I start a new thread??

Forumites suggestions?

moose

[Rick]

Edited
Cancel that , post it here .

[Battara]

Moose, I would not call that a trident, but part of the plant "okir" motif used on these blades. Also, by the look of the mounts on the hilt, it looks like you have bands of silver and copper with a gold wash (or at least worn gold over copper). I agree with the other assessments already mentioned.

[moose]

Battara,
Thanks. Later on I'll post some pics of a dagger I have that I believe has Solomon's square and some Tridents on it.

Yes it looks like silver and Gold over copper. Is that called suassa? sp? or something like it.

moose

[Battara]

No. Swassa (swaasa, suassa, suaasa, etc.) is not a layer of gold over copper but a mix of gold, copper, and sometimes other metals to produce a 7-9K gold and change in color from a pinkish hue to orange, red, or even green (rarer) hue.

[moose]

Here's the second kris I bought. Again a number of years ago. Got this one at a gun show. It was laying on the table in a big pile of mixed blades

I liked it intially because of the diminutive cockatoo that reminded me of my first kris. I also liked the deeper arrowheads and what looks like a gold maker's mark.
It was a lot smaller and no sheath. The blade is 18" 22 3/4" oal. It has a forging fault mid blade on the left side.

Comments Please.
moose

[Federico]

Very nice kris. If youve seen any of the other kris threads that exploded with huge number of posts, this is one of the infamous archaic aka. 18th Century kris. It is a very nice example, and the dimmunative cockatua may be orginal, though it does seem like the hilt was lengthened at some point. At least Bob Cato in his book Moro Swords, feels that the 18th century/archaic style originally had hilts of dimmunitive size and pommels. Anyways, try wading through the other origins of kris, is this a moro kris, etc... threads and decide for yourself if this style is truly Moro or not. I still feel they are, with some interesting Brunei conntections, but then that is just my opinion, others have been very voiciferous to the contrary. Anyways, very nice kris, me likey a whole lot.

[moose]

Thanks Fredrico,
I have come to appreciate it more over the years. It's faster, just seems more practical in the hand.

Here's a close up of the deep incising near the tip.

moose

[Spunjer]

nice one, moose! have you tried etching the blade?

[Federico]

Seeing some of the inlay near the top, I wonder if it was at one point fully inlaid. But then, I suppose that could be said about many Moro swords with engraving, were they inlaid at one point, and polishing/etching/corrosion caused the grooves to shallow out. I know on my one kris with some remains of the inlay, many of the grooves seem as if they have shallowed out over the years for one reason or the other. Particularly when part of the inlay pops, then corrosion has a way of building up underneath making the rest want to pop out. Battara would have some great insights into inlay, as he has actually redone inlay on some swords. And if you are in the inlay commenting mood, what did you use to re-engrave the grooves, a graver, scribe, diamond tip engraver for a dremel, etc...? Ive been contemplating redoing the inlay or a sword, but many of the grooves have become to shallow, and need to be re-done.

[Battara]

I had to make my own gravers out of tempered steel, but small enough to fit into the grooves and re-ingrave the channels. Very time consuming process. And it is not just the depth but the angle of the cuts that is very important.

[moose]

Battara,
What are your thoughts about the golden metal inlaid on this kris?
Maker's Mark? Isn't it odd, the one piece inlaid in the long channel?

I think this is what Frederico is refering to when he wonders if the whole thing had been inlaid at onetime.

Spunjer,
No, I haven't tried etching it yet. I have done some lime juice etching on some daggers I'll be posting later.
I have purchaced some of the etchant Radio Shack sells and read up on previous threads. But I'm not ready to try something like that on this beauty.

Going to practice some more on some of my "less dear to my heart stuff" first.
Don't want any major mistakes.

moose

[Battara]

Moose, you have a wonderful piece there (envy, envy, grumble, grumble....). I know that some engraving on blades are too shallow to have been inlaid. On your piece I am surprised to see inlay. This may raise a whole new set of questions for me and for the field if inlay were common in the engraving of these blades and just popped out. I do not think this is a maker's mark (especially since Filipinos/Moros/Indonesians did not use maker's marks) but perhaps a talismanic design. I think there could be a good argument for your whole blade once being inlaid seeing the pics you have posted. The material is a little harder to discern from the pics, it could be gold, brass, or tarnished silver (which can get a yellow-brownish oxidation depending upon the grade of silver and environmental chemical exposure). It looks to me that the whole channel was once inlaid and that most of it popped out.

By the way, etch the puppy and see what surprises are in store for you.

[Federico]

Now Jose, if more Moro swords originally had inlays, then that means more collectors are gonna need to send you their swords for restoration

Anyways, I know what you mean about the shallow grooves. On my one kris with some inlay remaining, in many spots where the inlay has popped out the engraving is so shallow it is almost invisible. Id like to say oh this is the un-inlayed part, but then there is the matching star on the left that still has inlay. I suppose we could get inlay happy re-doing every sword with engraving, but it does make you wonder. Corrosion or on purpose.

[moose]

Now no one has mentioned the fiber wrapping on the second kris.
I would think that this could not be as old as the blade and ivory cockatoo. Maybe re-wrapped somewhere around or just before WWII?

Any thoughts on the material? What was commonly used? Jute?, palm fibers? Some other local fiber bearing plant? If around WWII maybe hemp?

moose

[Bill]

Like your choice in blades. As strange as it sounds both blades may be 18thC, the first from Mindanao (Maguindanao?), the second Sulawesi (my opinion). The first is trying to emulate the style of the second. I have 2 kris in the second type, one is very much like yours, it has a oval tang 3/8 x 5/8"; I would not be surprised if yours did not have the same. (as a side note, mine has a ferrule made of Carabao horn). The original wrap may have dozens of things. Ratten, different grasses, bark cloth, or silk & ratten wraps. If you decide to remove it, it would be nice to see a picture of it, naked. Bet the stirup was made of the same metal as the blade. Does the blade strike you as a bit different than the first blade, like the second has a higher nickle content. The stirup likely started out about 4.5 x .25", split down the center for about 2.5", hammered nicely to hit around the blade, filed & welded back together again to fit over the gangya.

[moose]

Bill,
The second blade is always brighter. Never dulls or tarnishes anymore than it is. Would that mean to you that it has a higher nickle content?

I always thought the first blade was old. The arrowheads were just not done as elegantly. From my limited knowledge of smithing producing the second blade would mean your on a whole different level of smithing. Either blade was done compently.

I appreciate your post.

moose

[moose]

This Kris handle was an E-bay buy around a year ago.. Thought I was sneaking something out from under you guys watchful eyes.

Alas, the blade it was on was very dissapointing. The luks were very sharp, not the smooth graceful luks I was hoping for. (weak auction photos) And someone had taken it to the grinder and blued the points of several luks.

But the handle I thought was very nice! I'll put it up for comment. I'll get a pic or two up of the blade also so you can see what I was talking about. Who knows with a sanding and etch I might be wrong.

I also just won a blade a couple of days ago hoping maybe it would be a good match for this handle. I'll post it too when it arrives.

So tell me what you think,

moose

[Bill]

Moose, I guess its up to you about the hilt. My guess is the hilt you just posted was made after 1960. Traditionally the hilts would be upgraded. To me the first kris seems odd, old blade, old kakatua, & then the rest is likely 30 years old or so. To me, a hundred year + blade should keep to the of 1930 or older dress. Think its what you feel is good, as long as nothing gets damaged, you can change it again later.

[Spunjer]

moose 49017?

the blade will definitely match that puhan more than the one i, err, the seller added with the blade. you should get it by tomorrow or friday at the latest .

here's a weird one: when i first acquired that blade, i placed it in the oven just to warm it up so i can strip it with whatever oil or grease it has on. when i took it out a very strong scent of coconut product was coming out where the gangya and the blade connects. why would that be?

[Bill]

Spunjer, You cooked the Jen!

[Spunjer]

LOL! i hope not!













...aren't they suppose to be invincible anyways?

[moose]

"moose 49017? "

Spunjer,
I went back and took a look. Brazilian Ju Jitsu Fan.....
brazjitsfan...I get it now!

Looking forward to seeing what I got.

Now we both know.

moose

[moose]

Battara,
Or anybody else that wants to chime in.

This is all premature because my new blade hasn't arrived yet. But I know the asang asang/s are missing on it.

If the handle above fits well with the blade how would I go about fitting new asang asang/s to this handle?
I presume forge the ends down thin and long so they slide into the handle along with the tang.
But that's just a guess.

I dunno maybe it's not done with this kind of handle? I have the pitch for setting the blade into the handle.

moose

[moose]

bump to the top.

moose