Identify saber

[bvieira]

Hello,

I Saw this saber on a antiques shop, don't know this model, anybody recognise it ? It was no visible marks.

Tks!

BV

[Jim McDougall]

This is obviously a stirrup hilt of M1796 British light cavalry form but the langets are compellingly similar to those on Indian tulwars (Indo-Persian form hilts) and may well have been for units of cavalry in British service in India. The M1796 while one of the first 'regulation ' pattern swords for Great Britain, seems to have had quite an array of variations as private contractors producing them responded more to demands of the colonels purchasing them than to strict pattern design in certain elements.

This sword 'pattern' itself was much favored in the Indian army and remained being produced (again in variant interpretations) well through the 19th century after the succession of the 1821 patterns which followed the 1796.

Interesting example, and the only such variant 1796's I have seen were some in brass, also with Indian style langet which I believe was for EIC native forces after Seringpatam (1799). I have also seen steel shamshir type hilt with tulwar style quillon terminals and langets.....with British M1788 blade.
I think all of these may fall into an EIC category of private purchase arms.

[kronckew]

The 'Flank Officers', of the light infantry, skirmishers and rifle companies used to screen the sides of the Line regiments, favoured the more highly curved variants like the one in post #1. Private purchase officer swords frequently did not have the riveted backstrap 'stirrups' that the troopers had. The wire wound grips were not used on troopers versions.

The Indians were offered the 1908 brit 'sabre', but it was unsuited to their preference for the cut, so they kept a 1796 style hatchet point blade with slight improvements and a three branch 1821 style steel guard as Model 1910 until the UK forced them to use the 1908 for ww1 in Europe.

Mine: Slightly wider at the blade/guard junction, a tad shorter and a bit lighter than my 1796 LC. It's also a bit handier.

[fernando]

Bruno, do i recall correctly in that you told me you have a copy of AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES by Eduardo Nobre?
If you hit page 121 you will see two sabres in that the hilts visibly resemble the example you posted. Characteristic of Portuguese light cavalry, as per 1806 regulation.
The absence of a prominent pommel is a revealing detail. So is the shape of the langets, an orientalist design bringing memories of Moorish influence. And i wouldn't be surprised that the tang end is screwed to the hilt dome and not peened.
Blades in these swords were sometimes bent to an exagerated point (so called parabolic), a typical period show off fashion, like IN HERE.


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[fernando]

A "De Luxe" version of the 1806 Uniform Plan (as it was called) would be this example, provenant of the House of Marquis de Fronteira.The scabbard is silver, with a textile & gold knot strap and tassel. The well bent blade with traces of having been silver plated, with three fullers as from the second quarter. The hilt is in silver, with an internal riveted finger guard. The grip is ebony, with braided silver wire.
(Courtesy Paço Ducal de Vila Viçosa)


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[kronckew]

The top sword in Fernando's post 4 looks like a match. I think we have a winner!

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

The top sword in Fernando's post 4 looks like a match. I think we have a winner!

And the prize is ... a saucer of barnacles ... and a pint of bitter .

[ariel]

Fernando,
Is it the photograph, or is this Portuguese blade sharpened only at its distal half?

[fernando]

Which one you mean, Ariel; the one in post #5 ?
The catalogue mentions "de um só gume e cota", roughly translating to "one only edge and back". What you would interpreter as single edged; in all its distance, it must be.

[Jim McDougall]

Wayne, brilliantly summarized notes on the Indian cavalry swords! a field of study which still often remains extremely arcane in the scope of military swords.
Which brings me to an even more arcane category of cavalry swords, which are those of Portugal. Perfect match of Bruno's sabre to this Portuguese example! While I have known of the Portuguese fashioning examples after the British model 1796 sabres, I had no idea of these intriguing designs in the langets.
My admittedly free association comparison to Indian langets on Indian tulwars suggested possible EIC connection based on other instances I had mentioned, but this specific match to the Portuguese sword would appear irrefutable, and delightfully so.


Thank you guys...…...discussions are the VERY best when something new is learned, and best of all, shared.

[MacCathain]

Another Portuguese sabre with exotic langets. From the Lisbon Military Museum.

[kronckew]

Love the finger loop, similar to one on Fernando's example.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Love the finger loop, similar to one on Fernando's example.

... Which were commonly referred as Sabres de Gatilho (trigger sabres).
The one below in this picture was for use by Army Staff Officers, those of the Corps of Engineers and Scouts.
The example above, more like Bruno's posted example, has the inscription VIVA PORTUGAL and is signed by A.Mesquita, the probable sword smith, a name however not listed in Sousa Viterbo's A Armaria e Portugal (1907).


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[bvieira]

Hello,

Thanks all for the information, about Fernando question, yes i have the book but the angle of this saber is so exagerated that i had doubt's it was original... Meanwhile i bought it and another One with a "normal" angle.

Regards,

BV

[fernando]

Probably most parabolic blades didn't come like that from the original maker or even obbeyed regulations; i believe they were modified by owners once in their possession, being sent to a (black) smith to be submitted to such special treatment.
However, we know of some that came out like that as a "legal" pattern.

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[Will M]

Interesting post, I've ordered the book AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES.
Many Napoleonic swords that appear British are not necessarily so.
I'm curious what other sword types are in this book.

[kronckew]

There is a thread here about these highly. curved blades, by fernando:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...&page=1&pp=30&

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

There is a thread here about these highly. curved blades, by fernando:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...&page=1&pp=30&

That's where my link in post #4 came from; only i just wanted to focus in the specific example .

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Will M

Interesting post, I've ordered the book AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES.
Many Napoleonic swords that appear British are not necessarily so.
I'm curious what other sword types are in this book.

You may find here and there descriptons worth a pinch of salt, specially on what touches the recurrent attribution 'dispute' Portuguese VS Spanish, as also some texts emphasized, like for adding value to the pieces. Pictures are excelent.

[bvieira]

Hello,

Meanwhile i found more information about the sword, it seems it was popular in Brasil with a nickname of "Rabo de galo", "rooster tail ?".

Regards,

BV