Kettle Helmet

AHorsa · 25th April 2016, 09:42 PM

Dear All,

is this an authentic piece?
Diameter 34cm, height 16cm, weight ~1kg

Looking forward to your comments.

Kind regards
Andreas

AHorsa · 25th April 2016, 09:43 PM

more pics

corrado26 · 26th April 2016, 04:08 PM

I take this for a far too regularly oxydized helmet. Especially the fact that not a single rivet is missing or rusted away is very suspicious and so after my opinion it is not as old as it looks like!
corrado26

fernando · 26th April 2016, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

... I take this for a far too regularly oxydized helmet...

Indeed

.

asomotif · 26th April 2016, 11:10 PM

For the record, on picture 6 , I see 1 missing rivet...

Assuming that this helmet is artificially aged, as your remarks suggest.
How would they achieve such heavy pitting with even holes in the metal ?

Shakethetrees · 27th April 2016, 12:32 AM

Nitric acid, strong, and watch it like a mother hen. Remarkably fast.

AHorsa · 27th April 2016, 09:41 AM

Thanks for the replies. Well, on rivet is indeed missing. Concerning the more or less regular oxidation: i had a breastplate from the 16th century which was authentic and also had a totally reulr oxidated survace (much more regular than this piece). Are there any other evidences that this helmet isn't original?

corrado26 · 27th April 2016, 01:33 PM

I miss rivets that formerly helt the inside cap and I miss traces where the chin straps have been fixed and honestly I've never seen a iron hat of this style................
corrado26

A Senefelder · 28th April 2016, 11:12 AM

This is helmet is of spangen construction wherin the bowl of the helmet is made up of from 2 to 6 plates riveted to a strapwork frame. Helmets have been made in this fashion from the iron age to the Renaissance. In this case the bowl is made from two halves from back to front. It appears that a strap running from side to side was used to provide initial stabilization for installing the strap from back to front to join the two halves along their seem. The bowl was the attached to its brim using a simple flange on the brim, I've made a few hundered helmets in this manner in my years swining a hammer. Kettle helmets constructed in this manner appear frequently in 13th and 14th century manuscript artwork. 13th century kettle helms typically have either a more domed, or truncated cone shape to the bowl portion. In the 14th century a bit more of a peaked bowl begins to appear ( by way of example see the illuminated Address from the town of Prato of Robert of Anjou, c. first half of the 14th c.). In the 14th century it also became a not uncommon practice to wear a kettle helmet over another smaller helmet like a skull cap or cervalier this obviating the need for a liner. This piece is done in the manner of a 14th c. kettle helmet. A lack of a liner does not necessarily indicate it is a fake, I cannot determine if any apparatus was installed for a chin strap, or some sort of method for tying it under the chin from the photos. As to the condition of the steel, while pitting can be faked, I've owned " dug " items from WWI that have been in the exact same shape so that's not necessarily a proof of being fake to me. The thing that does strike me as unusual is the rolled and counter sunk border of the brim of the helmet. This technique is something I associate with the 16th and 17th centuries, pretty much all actual armour I've seen from the 14th century has either outwardly rolled or non rolled edges. I've never seen a rolled and counter sunk edge from that period. Does this make it a fake, not necessarily, I learned long ago that since we're studying the left overs its very difficult to nail down exact periods for stuff as there seems to always be that one odd ball that pops up. Is this real or is it fake? I honestly can't say from just pictures, I would really need hands on time to have a better feel for it. My 2c. worth, take it for what its worth.

fernando · 2nd May 2016, 12:04 PM

Regretfully the images that gave reason to this thread had to be deleted after problems reported by thread author.
Tolerance is requested from the participants in its discussion.

AHorsa · 2nd May 2016, 08:19 PM

I am sorry for that. It won´t happen again!

Best regards
Andreas

cornelistromp · 8th May 2016, 07:27 AM

I also noticed this helmet on Ebay Germany some weeks ago, I presume it to be a recent reproduction.

best,
jasper

corrado26 · 10th May 2016, 02:00 PM

Quote:

I presume it to be a recent reproduction.

That's exaktly what I think too.
corrado26

25th April 2016, 09:42 PM	#1
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Kettle Helmet Dear All, is this an authentic piece? Diameter 34cm, height 16cm, weight ~1kg Looking forward to your comments. Kind regards Andreas Last edited by fernando; 2nd May 2016 at 11:57 AM.

25th April 2016, 09:43 PM	#2
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	more pics Last edited by fernando; 2nd May 2016 at 11:56 AM. Reason: Images deleted at member's request

26th April 2016, 04:08 PM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	I take this for a far too regularly oxydized helmet. Especially the fact that not a single rivet is missing or rusted away is very suspicious and so after my opinion it is not as old as it looks like! corrado26

26th April 2016, 11:10 PM	#5
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,224	For the record, on picture 6 , I see 1 missing rivet... Assuming that this helmet is artificially aged, as your remarks suggest. How would they achieve such heavy pitting with even holes in the metal ?

27th April 2016, 12:32 AM	#6
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Nitric acid, strong, and watch it like a mother hen. Remarkably fast.

27th April 2016, 09:41 AM	#7
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Thanks for the replies. Well, on rivet is indeed missing. Concerning the more or less regular oxidation: i had a breastplate from the 16th century which was authentic and also had a totally reulr oxidated survace (much more regular than this piece). Are there any other evidences that this helmet isn't original?

27th April 2016, 01:33 PM	#8
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	I miss rivets that formerly helt the inside cap and I miss traces where the chin straps have been fixed and honestly I've never seen a iron hat of this style................ corrado26

28th April 2016, 11:12 AM	#9
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	This is helmet is of spangen construction wherin the bowl of the helmet is made up of from 2 to 6 plates riveted to a strapwork frame. Helmets have been made in this fashion from the iron age to the Renaissance. In this case the bowl is made from two halves from back to front. It appears that a strap running from side to side was used to provide initial stabilization for installing the strap from back to front to join the two halves along their seem. The bowl was the attached to its brim using a simple flange on the brim, I've made a few hundered helmets in this manner in my years swining a hammer. Kettle helmets constructed in this manner appear frequently in 13th and 14th century manuscript artwork. 13th century kettle helms typically have either a more domed, or truncated cone shape to the bowl portion. In the 14th century a bit more of a peaked bowl begins to appear ( by way of example see the illuminated Address from the town of Prato of Robert of Anjou, c. first half of the 14th c.). In the 14th century it also became a not uncommon practice to wear a kettle helmet over another smaller helmet like a skull cap or cervalier this obviating the need for a liner. This piece is done in the manner of a 14th c. kettle helmet. A lack of a liner does not necessarily indicate it is a fake, I cannot determine if any apparatus was installed for a chin strap, or some sort of method for tying it under the chin from the photos. As to the condition of the steel, while pitting can be faked, I've owned " dug " items from WWI that have been in the exact same shape so that's not necessarily a proof of being fake to me. The thing that does strike me as unusual is the rolled and counter sunk border of the brim of the helmet. This technique is something I associate with the 16th and 17th centuries, pretty much all actual armour I've seen from the 14th century has either outwardly rolled or non rolled edges. I've never seen a rolled and counter sunk edge from that period. Does this make it a fake, not necessarily, I learned long ago that since we're studying the left overs its very difficult to nail down exact periods for stuff as there seems to always be that one odd ball that pops up. Is this real or is it fake? I honestly can't say from just pictures, I would really need hands on time to have a better feel for it. My 2c. worth, take it for what its worth.

2nd May 2016, 12:04 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Regretfully the images that gave reason to this thread had to be deleted after problems reported by thread author. Tolerance is requested from the participants in its discussion.

2nd May 2016, 08:19 PM	#11
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	I am sorry for that. It won´t happen again! Best regards Andreas

8th May 2016, 07:27 AM	#12
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	I also noticed this helmet on Ebay Germany some weeks ago, I presume it to be a recent reproduction. best, jasper