Mahdist knife

Freddy · 9th June 2008, 07:06 PM

I found this one yesterday on a Belgian auction site. I think it comes from the Sudan. It has a 'Mahdist' feel to it with the Arabic inscriptions on the blade.

It was the blade which interested me. Has anyone seen this on an African blade ? Looks Indian to me, or am I wrong ?

Length is 27 cm.

I'll send better pics when it arrives.

Tim Simmons · 9th June 2008, 07:18 PM

Nice and very interesting! When you get it post better pictures showing the script.

Freddy · 9th June 2008, 07:34 PM

Looks old, no ?

Tim Simmons · 9th June 2008, 08:04 PM

Looks old and African, if I say Sudan it will be in the old sense of the word far more than the "Mahdi" "Omdurman" and all that.

Jim McDougall · 10th June 2008, 11:27 PM

This dagger is most definitely Sudanese, and probably an early to mid 20th century interpretation of those fashioned by Mahdist armourers during those conflicts. The basic form reflects the kindjhals often carried by Turco-Egyptian troops, which was often imitated by local smiths and an example of this exact type blade is shown in the catalog for the Kendall Collection exhibition (Linz & Schallaberg, Austria, 2001-2002).

The bifurcated blade of course is intended as an interpretation reflecting the very sacred Sword used by Muhammed, Dhu'l Faqar, and the thuluth script acid etched on the blade is typical of those on Sudanese edged weapons associated with the Mahdist period

Tim Simmons · 11th June 2008, 10:37 PM

Freddy, I have just gambled on this. I do believe I can see a version of the inscription "The conqueror, salvation unto him" so we both have things to compere. I have a similar axe pretty much the same size 26 inches long but without the copper? inlay.

Jim McDougall · 12th June 2008, 12:41 AM

"...axes were popular among the Mahdist troops, and many were used in the butchery of Khartoum when the city fell"

"...some had elegant crescent shaped blades", further, "...the grips are normally wrapped in crocodile skin".

"Ten Years of Captivity in the Mahdis Camp"
F.R.Wingate, Cairo, 1892

A highly decorative example has its entire surface covered with elaborate acide etched 'thuluth' with additional brass calligraphic inlays.
Kendall, 2001

Freddy · 12th June 2008, 10:56 AM

Nice axe, Tim.

As promised here are the pics. I just received the piece and it looks great. I hope someone can read the text.

It still has its original leather covered wooden scabbard. This knife is sharp and functional.

Tim Simmons · 12th June 2008, 11:22 AM

Looks good and old to me. Very nice. I should be working but I sold some work yesterday and to my amazement got payed. So my discipline has gone astray today.

I think the script is a version of this. I believe the version seen on weapons like this is not the most pure form however when one thinks of its use as decoration freely applied as we see here, some artistic license should be expected. Note the first symbol at the bottom rather like a number 3 round the wrong way. The axe should be with me Tuesday.

Jim McDougall · 12th June 2008, 03:59 PM

Most interesting guys, thanks very much.

Jim McDougall · 13th June 2008, 04:22 AM

Tim, just noticed the reference you're using......thanks again

and I hadn't thought of checking that . Actually the 'thuluth' script is indeed actually more decorative than distinctly applied calligraphy, and was used in imitation of the beautiful metalwork on Mamluk weapons of Egypt

Looking forward to pics of the axe....and its great to see some good Sudanese weapons posted!

Best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 16th June 2008, 03:17 PM

Arrived today. No idea about the inlay script.

ward · 16th June 2008, 03:58 PM

The problem with reading many inscriptions on Sudanese pieces is that a lot of it was badly copied from the koran. Often you will see the inscription starting in the middle of a sentence and ending when they ran out of room. Often more talisman and decorative than anything else

Jim McDougall · 16th June 2008, 11:10 PM

Nice axe, of Mahdist style. It appears that the 'thuluth' and brass inlay is representative of the weapons of Mamluk heritage, and was probably favored in a talismanic or amuletic sense.

9th June 2008, 07:06 PM	#1
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Mahdist knife I found this one yesterday on a Belgian auction site. I think it comes from the Sudan. It has a 'Mahdist' feel to it with the Arabic inscriptions on the blade. It was the blade which interested me. Has anyone seen this on an African blade ? Looks Indian to me, or am I wrong ? Length is 27 cm. I'll send better pics when it arrives.

11th June 2008, 10:37 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Freddy, I have just gambled on this. I do believe I can see a version of the inscription "The conqueror, salvation unto him" so we both have things to compere. I have a similar axe pretty much the same size 26 inches long but without the copper? inlay. Attached Images

12th June 2008, 10:56 AM	#8
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	new pics Nice axe, Tim. As promised here are the pics. I just received the piece and it looks great. I hope someone can read the text. It still has its original leather covered wooden scabbard. This knife is sharp and functional.

12th June 2008, 11:22 AM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Looks good and old to me. Very nice. I should be working but I sold some work yesterday and to my amazement got payed. So my discipline has gone astray today. I think the script is a version of this. I believe the version seen on weapons like this is not the most pure form however when one thinks of its use as decoration freely applied as we see here, some artistic license should be expected. Note the first symbol at the bottom rather like a number 3 round the wrong way. The axe should be with me Tuesday. Attached Images

16th June 2008, 03:17 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Quite nice Arrived today. No idea about the inlay script. Attached Images

9th June 2008, 07:18 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Nice and very interesting! When you get it post better pictures showing the script.

9th June 2008, 07:34 PM	#3
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Looks old, no ?

9th June 2008, 08:04 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Looks old and African, if I say Sudan it will be in the old sense of the word far more than the "Mahdi" "Omdurman" and all that.

10th June 2008, 11:27 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,955	This dagger is most definitely Sudanese, and probably an early to mid 20th century interpretation of those fashioned by Mahdist armourers during those conflicts. The basic form reflects the kindjhals often carried by Turco-Egyptian troops, which was often imitated by local smiths and an example of this exact type blade is shown in the catalog for the Kendall Collection exhibition (Linz & Schallaberg, Austria, 2001-2002). The bifurcated blade of course is intended as an interpretation reflecting the very sacred Sword used by Muhammed, Dhu'l Faqar, and the thuluth script acid etched on the blade is typical of those on Sudanese edged weapons associated with the Mahdist period

12th June 2008, 12:41 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,955	"...axes were popular among the Mahdist troops, and many were used in the butchery of Khartoum when the city fell" "...some had elegant crescent shaped blades", further, "...the grips are normally wrapped in crocodile skin". "Ten Years of Captivity in the Mahdis Camp" F.R.Wingate, Cairo, 1892 A highly decorative example has its entire surface covered with elaborate acide etched 'thuluth' with additional brass calligraphic inlays. Kendall, 2001

12th June 2008, 03:59 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,955	Most interesting guys, thanks very much.

13th June 2008, 04:22 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,955	Tim, just noticed the reference you're using......thanks again and I hadn't thought of checking that . Actually the 'thuluth' script is indeed actually more decorative than distinctly applied calligraphy, and was used in imitation of the beautiful metalwork on Mamluk weapons of Egypt Looking forward to pics of the axe....and its great to see some good Sudanese weapons posted! Best regards, Jim

16th June 2008, 03:58 PM	#13
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	The problem with reading many inscriptions on Sudanese pieces is that a lot of it was badly copied from the koran. Often you will see the inscription starting in the middle of a sentence and ending when they ran out of room. Often more talisman and decorative than anything else

16th June 2008, 11:10 PM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,955	Nice axe, of Mahdist style. It appears that the 'thuluth' and brass inlay is representative of the weapons of Mamluk heritage, and was probably favored in a talismanic or amuletic sense.