Dagger ID Needed

[Robert]

Hello,
I really need help in identifying where this dagger is from. It looks Spanish Colonial to me but from where? The total length of the dagger is 17 inches. What looks to be the original leather scabbard is with the dagger (for a change) and I hope it will help in its identification. I do not have this yet and these are the only pictures of it that I have. All comments and help with this would be greatly appreciated.


Robert

[Tim Simmons]

Looks like those North African, Saharan blades? Spanish Sahara? There is a thread with lots of these blades which I cannot find. Love the thimbles finish to the grip.

[Atlantia]

What a nice piece Robert!

First thought was that it reminded me of the Hudiedao (have a look at Gavs impressive selection).
The scabbard is really familiar and I'm sure I've seen something similar... somewhere.......
As Tim noted, the 'thimbles' are kind of distinctive. Iron with a brass band? I've not seen ones like that before. I'd say they are a good clue for identifying the place of manufacture (thimbles are quite collectable, must be a forum somewhere).
Then the handle shape looks Phillipine....
How about a fusion piece? Many Chinese immigrants worked in the clothing trade?

I absolutely love it though! It looks very well made. An extremely interesting piece.

Gene

[Gavin Nugent]

Nice looking knife,
All guess work but I would say distinctly Philippine by form, most possibly made by one one the many Chinese traders in the regions during the Spanish occupation of the late 1800s as the guard does has a Chinese feel too it (see some of Josh's old blades too)....though I can't quite pick it, I have seen that guard somewhere before.... the blade most likely a reprofiled Spanish court sword.
I would be interested to know what you gleam from handling it when it arrives.

Gav

[CourseEight]

I believe this is thread Tim is referring to. I can certainly see similarities.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=bollock

[Rick]

I tend to agree with Gav.; the scabbard tip looks very Philippine to me .
The use of thimbles for ferrule and pommel cap would indicate scrounged parts typical of village work .

My .02

[Robert]

My thanks to everyone who have responded to this thread so far. I was hoping that this might be from the Philippines. The scabbard end as well as the grip as stated do have a distinct Philippine flair to them but my memory (not being what it was just a few years ago) tends to lead me on flights of fancy at times so I wanted some opinions before making any rash statements on its possible origin. I have sent in requests to a few people who collect thimbles in hopes of getting an idea of their age and origin as suggested by Gene. Further opinions or comments on this dagger would be greatly appreciated. Thank you all again.

Robert

[Jim McDougall]

I would go with Gav on this......very much Philippines, and the faceted grip is similar to a number of weapons I've seen in essentially a espada ancha type hilt. This is however more in the form of a plug bayonet, a weapon that remained in use in form much longer than often realized in the Spanish cultural sphere. Since Chinese influence distinctly prevailed in these regions as Gav has astutely noted, the alternating quillon guard of the dual 'butterfly' fighting knives seems reflective in styling.
Good points Rick on the thimble potential!! Recycling at work

All best regards,
Jim

[Robert]

Hello,
Again I would like to thank everyone who has responded to this thread. Here is what I have found out so far. I've heard back from two of the experts on thimbles that I contacted to get more information on the ones used on this dagger. They both agree that the thimbles date from the late 1700s to about 1850. So if the thimbles were new when used the dagger could have been made anywhere from the late 1700s to around 1850 or even later depending on the supply of "new old stock thimbles" laying around. Of coarse at the same time if they were not new it could have been made anywhere from the late 1700s onward. Getting the dating of these items was interesting and fun but as it turns out with such a wide range of manufacture that it is not of much help on dating this piece. My next question is who do you think would have owned a dagger like this a Spanish soldier or colonist, a Chinese traders or a Filipino? Thanks again.

Robert

P.S.
One other thing I find odd about this dagger are the five ///// hash marks that are found on only one flat of the grip, any ideas?

[Rick]

I think the thimbles fall into the frugal 'never throw anything away; it might have a second use' category .
Age ?
I'd bet 1880 1900, just a feeling .

Five notches ?

[Robert]

I meant to add that the are called tailor's thimbles, which mean they did not have a top, as tailor's would push the needle with the side of the thimble, using the knurling to help hold it as it pushed through material. The notches can be seen in the forth and sixth pictures down from the top. I have seen marks like this on the spine and ricasso of blades before but this is the first time that I have seen them on the grip itself.

Robert

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

I meant to add that the are called tailor's thimbles, which mean they did not have a top, as tailor's would push the needle with the side of the thimble, using the knurling to help hold it as it pushed through material. The notches can be seen in the forth and sixth pictures down from the top. I have seen marks like this on the spine and ricasso of blades before but this is the first time that I have seen them on the grip itself.

Robert

I would suggest these thimbles also came from Chinese traders, maybe used when newer ones became available, most likely originally from Europe though.
I tentatively suggest this as the Chinese traded greatly in textiles and it seems more than possible given the knife styling.
I too would agree with the 1880+ dating though maybe 30 years earlier.

Gav

[Battara]

I have held off because I had to think about this piece. I agree that the hilt looks Filipino and what helps is the fact that it is made of carabao horn. It was in Luzon due to the fact that the tang goes through the hilt into the end.

I would agree that the blade is a Spanish bayonet.

The thimbles - would be used if made of silver - as Rick said - "frugal"

[Hotspur]

My guess for the blade and I concur with late 19th century and into the 20th century for origin of make up.

http://www.arms2armor.com/Swords/fren1887iof.htm

Continental as well, my thinking but the styles easily travel and get absorbed in other cultures.

The T shape Gras bayonet blades are spine to edge, whereas the Epee blade linked is side to side, as is this dagger.

Cheers

GC

One viewer read my modern hafted poinard as a sai An 18th century blade on this one with quite modern parts, overall.

[Atlantia]

Date wise, the construction looks 19thC to me, possibly mid. Especially the thimbles.

[migueldiaz]

Dimasalang, where are you when we need you?!

Your knowledge on Katipunan-era daggers would be me most useful here sir.

[Dimasalang]

Sorry, been busy Xmas shopping. hehe

I reread the posts here and took a long hard look at this piece. I agree it is from the Philippines, as noted by others, the scabbard design and the handle(horn and shape) are just to similar to all the other pieces that come out of the Philippines. And I would definitely agree the blade was a former rifle bayonet. I know many late 19th century bayonets were 3 edged just as this. Curious to know which rifle bayonet this is...doesn't seem to be from a Spanish Rolling Block or Mauser of that time, but there were rifles from all over the world that made it to the Philippines.
From my observation and humble opinion, it looks to be from the Revolution/Phil-Am War era and not earlier then that. I say this because a piece like this would be illegal to make and sell when the Spanish were still in control of the islands...so I wouldn't say it was pre-Katipunan era. Unlike a bolo which can be excused as a working farm tool, this can not pass as a farm tool, it is a weapon. I wouldn't count this as being made after the 1st Republic era also, because a weapon like this would also be outlawed by the Americans...and the 3 edged bayonets weren't used after this time I believe, as well as Chinese blade smithing in the Luzon area. Bladed fighting weapons were being discreetly manufactured shortly after the Katipunan was established(1892)...and afterwards, open mass production began once the revolution started(1896) and the 1st Republic was established. The horn handle and shape do seem similar to southern Luzon design. The guard and the thimbles are another interesting part...the chinese shape and design stand out. This just turns on another light bulb in my head. Prior to the revolution, Aguinaldo befriended a Chinese named Jose Paua. Paua was born in China and migrated to the Philippines in the early 1890s. He would became one of Aguinaldos bestfriends(Aguinaldo also has Chinese blood), and he would later become an in-law of Aguinaldos. Paua's family trade was blacksmithing during the Spanish era, but was also said to have experience in manufacturing firearms in China(most particularly cannons). Once the war broke out, Aguinaldo turned to Paua for help in producing, not only firearms and cannons, but bladed weapons. For the most part, the Chinese community in all the provinces wanted nothing to do with any revolution or war. Paua was the only pure blooded Chinese to be a high ranking officer in Aguinaldos government...he would later became one of Aguinaldos Generals. Paua used his power and influenced many of the Chinese blacksmiths in Cavite to produce weapons for the Magdiwang and Aguinaldos Magdalo group. Paua was the Chinese connection for the revolution and the 1st Republic. And Cavite is in southern Luzon. I can see one of these Chinese blacksmiths turning a ordinary bayonet in to a dagger with a Chinese/Philippine influential design.
The Chinese in the Philippines were adamant about adding pieces of their culture in to work they were hired to do. An example of this is the enormous Paoay Catholic Church of Ilocos Norte built by the Spanish with the help of Filipinos and Chineses workers, the design is a European and Asian blend. I saw this church in person and wow is it awesome and a sight to behold. Well, thats my 2 centavos worth of jabbering.

[Robert]

Hello everyone. The dagger has arrived and I am really pleased with the overall condition and construction though it does have a couple of problems. The first and the least of my worries is the cracked carabao horn grip. Age cracks are usually expected in older grips made from horn and I would have been somewhat suspicious it it wasn't. The second is the small brass bead was missing from where the tang exits the pommel but that has been easily replaced. The BIG problem is somewhere down the line someone decided to clean the rust from the blade with a wire wheel That I will leave for later repair. The blade itself comes to a very deadly needle sharp point. The reverse side of the blade does have a face flute that extends from the very tip to the ricasso, which is about 1/2 an inch long. The scabbard is hand stitched and in decent shape though the frog has seen much better days.

Dimasalang, Thank you very much for the wonderful information that you have contributed to this post as it is greatly appreciated. I do have a couple of questions that I would like to ask. You said, "It looks to be from the Revolution/Phil-Am War era and not earlier than that. I say this because a piece like this would be illegal to make and sell when the Spanish were still in control of the islands." My question on this would be, seeing that this dagger was designed for one purpose and one purpose only do you think that there could have been people (criminal types or assassins) that could have carried and used a dagger like this without really caring if it was against the law or not to own, and if so do you think that this could date this a little earlier than the 1890's ? My second question is, would it be correct to assume that the the correct term for this style of dagger to be a Tres Cantos ?

Here are a few new pictures showing the dagger after the replacement of the brass bead on the end of the hilt and a little light cleaning and waxing. The brass is not as shiny as it looks in the pictures.
Again my thanks for all the help that has been offered by everyone.

[Dimasalang]

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Dimasalang, Thank you very much for the wonderful information that you have contributed to this post as it is greatly appreciated. I do have a couple of questions that I would like to ask. You said, "It looks to be from the Revolution/Phil-Am War era and not earlier than that. I say this because a piece like this would be illegal to make and sell when the Spanish were still in control of the islands." My question on this would be, seeing that this dagger was designed for one purpose and one purpose only do you think that there could have been people (criminal types or assassins) that could have carried and used a dagger like this without really caring if it was against the law or not to own, and if so do you think that this could date this a little earlier than the 1890's ? My second question is, would it be correct to assume that the the correct term for this style of dagger to be a Tres Cantos ?

Hi Robert,
I know when most think of the Spanish era in the Philippines, they tend to believe Spain had "complete" control of all +7,000 islands and all square meters of land. This is very far from the truth. The Spanish were only in control of key areas and ports...and they had little to zero control in the Moro regions. During the Spanish era prior to the 1896 Revolution, the free roaming parts around the Philippines were: the mountainous regions, very rural country areas, swamp and dense jungle regions, and the southern Moro controlled regions. These are all parts the Spanish didn't care to control or could not control by force. The Visayan bolos, like the Tenegre and Garabs, were all products of the dense jungle and mountainous rural areas of Visayas. These regions and outskirts are the areas where criminal elements could live carrying such a blade. BUT, given this type looks to have Chinese influence I would say no on being from a rural area. The Chinese living in the Philippines banded together and thrived off business areas that were well "populated"(Southern Luzon regions, Cebu, Spanish controlled areas, and in Moro kingdoms). I can't see why a Chinese blacksmith would be out in the middle of rural nowhere making a living doing this. Areas that were uncontrolled by Moros or by Spanish were too dangerous for foreigners to reside or do business. I would say this was not made by a Chinese in the Moro region also, since a blade like this had no appeal to Moros, plus a Filipino(Christian) who would desire this type of blade would not be residing in Moro country, and most Chinese in Moroland would be making Moro style blades...and obviously the blade handle and scabbard has more of a Luzon style to it. This is all what makes sense to me...so I wouldn't say this piece was made anywhere in the above free regions.

It is important to note, during the Spanish era, we were slaves in our own country and there were "two" evil entities controlling the islands, the Spanish government and the Spanish Catholic Church. Even the rich and wealthy were not truely safe...they were under the thumb of both rulers. They wouldn't be able to carry or own a piece like this without question. Also, the revolution of 1896 was not the first attempt, there were several rebellions throughout the entire Philippines since the beginning of Spanish rule by both rich and poor folks, but none significant enough around the era of this piece to be made in. Many of the ones who were apart of these other rebellions were once Civil Guards of the Spanish Government...so even a Filipino or Mestizo Civil Guard would be under a watchful eye and under heavy scrutiny. Because of so many attempted rebellions, the Spanish were extremely strict and enforced these laws to the T...a hint of affiliation meant death or exile(thanks to the code of law: "Guilty until proven innocent"). If ever you would like to gain a better understanding of how life was during the mid to late 1800 under Spanish rule, I recommend reading the novel "Noli Me Tangere" published in the 1880s by the Philippines national hero Jose Rizal. A fictitious book about a make believe town in the Philippines during Spanish rule; but the environment, story situations, and details are true. The book in itself is a great read and is what sparked the Katipunan and the revolution..as well as the authors execution.


I actually forgot one other place this dagger could have possibly originated from, which is Hong Kong. For a large amount of money the Spanish paid Emilio Aguinaldo to stop the revolution and go in to self exile. Emilio Aguinaldo and his top generals agreed to this pact and decided to take their self exile in Hong Kong. The money paid to them was primarily to be used to purchase arms in China and Japan to help finance another planned revolution. This is just a small possibility, but given the handle design and such, I really doubt it was made in China.

As for the name Tres Cantos. I honestly wouldn't know. I know much of the history surrounding some of the blades in the Philippines, but not so much on the names of the blades themselves.

Hope this post helps out in some way or another.