And again a kris!

Sajen · 24th October 2012, 08:56 PM

Just win another kris by epray.

I don't have a clue from where this blade; maybe Sulu?

As age I would guess end of 19th century?
Blade have silver inlays and until now I can't remember to have seen an "elephant trunk" design like this before.
This kris need a lot of restoration, new asang-asang and the bands of of the handle including the binding. Jose, you would like to do it? I don't plan to restore the broken crest of the pommel since the break seems to be old and patinated. What you think?

Your comments are very welcome,

Detlef

VANDOO · 24th October 2012, 09:17 PM

A VERY INTERESTING OLD KRIS.

I HAVE OFTEN WONDERED IF SOME OF THESE DESIGNS MAY REPRESENT THE LARGE WHITE FISH EAGLES FOUND THRU-OUT THE REGION. ONE OF YOUR PICTURES SURE LOOKS LIKE AN EAGLE WITH ITS EYE AND NOSTRILS AND A FINE CURVED BEAK.
GIVEN THE IMPORTANCE PLACED ON LARGE BIRDS IN MANY SOCIETYS OVER THE WORLD I DO NOT SEE WHY THIS WOULD NOT APPLY TO THE ENTIRE AREA MALAYSIA, INDONESIA AND THE PHILIPPINES ESPECIALLY IN MORE ANCIENT TIMES. IN THE AMERICAS THE THUNDERBIRD, EAGLE AND RAVEN ARE IMPORTANT IN MANY LEGENDS AND TRIBAL LORE AND CEREMONIES. THE MAORI NO DOUBT HAVE MANY LEGENDS OF THE MOA AND OTHER BIRDS. THE DAYAK HAVE SPECIAL BELIEFS ABOUT THE HORNBILL AND ARGUS PHESANT AND NO DOUBT OTHER BIRDS. VARIOUS BIRDS ARE USED ON MASKS AND CARVEINGS IN AFRICA AND IN NEW GUINEA. MANKIND HAS ALWAYS LIKED TO DECK THEMSELVES OUT IN FEATHERS.
SO JUST TO STIR THE POT I WILL SAY IT REPRESENTS THE LARGE WHITE FISH EAGLE THAT ROAMS FREELY AMONG THE LANDS AND ISLANDS OF THAT PART OF THE WORLD, NOT THE ELEPHANT OR MAKARA

WHILE I AM STIRRING PERHAPS THIS FORM OF HANDLE REPRESENTS A EAGLE HEAD INSTEAD OF THE LOUD AND OFTEN OBNOXIOUS COCATOO WHICH TO MY KNOWLEGE HAS NO PLACE IN TRIBAL FOLKLORE IN THE PHILIPPINES.

Battara · 25th October 2012, 02:49 AM

You may be onto something Barry. I think that on Maguindanao kris the "eagle" is actually that, not the "elephant" look.

I agree that this is old, but that "eagle" is a form I have not seen much of. So I look at the inlaid okir on the blade, which looks either Maranao or Maguindanao.

Spunjer · 25th October 2012, 03:02 AM

in Mindanao and Sulu, Barry, it's the chicken. with supernatural power.

Battara · 25th October 2012, 05:01 AM

So Ron you think this is the sarimanok?

By the way, Detief, you have pm.........

Spunjer · 25th October 2012, 01:23 PM

not quite sure if it's chicken (sarimanok), or a sarinaga, jose. need to see the whole form... for instance, in this aprticular Maranao kris, we have a sarinaga.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13413
barry made a good point tho, regarding the importance of birds in the old belief. me and lorenz had an interesting discussion regarding this topic. perhaps he can chime in.

Quote:

INSTEAD OF THE LOUD AND OFTEN OBNOXIOUS COCATOO WHICH TO MY KNOWLEGE HAS NO PLACE IN TRIBAL FOLKLORE IN THE PHILIPPINES.

you nailed this one right on the head, barry!

as far as the eagle tho: the philippines have the monkey eating eagle, or philippine eagle..

Sajen · 25th October 2012, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

A VERY INTERESTING OLD KRIS.

I HAVE OFTEN WONDERED IF SOME OF THESE DESIGNS MAY REPRESENT THE LARGE WHITE FISH EAGLES FOUND THRU-OUT THE REGION. ONE OF YOUR PICTURES SURE LOOKS LIKE AN EAGLE WITH ITS EYE AND NOSTRILS AND A FINE CURVED BEAK.

Hello Barry,

interesting observation and thoughts. You mean pic. 9, correct?

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 25th October 2012, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

You may be onto something Barry. I think that on Maguindanao kris the "eagle" is actually that, not the "elephant" look.

I agree that this is old, but that "eagle" is a form I have not seen much of. So I look at the inlaid okir on the blade, which looks either Maranao or Maguindanao.

Hello Jose,

thank you for comment and email!

So I am not the only one who have a problem by the "eagle" katik (kembang kacang) area.

Any thoughts about the age from this blade?

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 25th October 2012, 09:17 PM

Just noted that i have forgotten to upload one picture from the auction. This picture is very interesting since it seems that the tang is round.
Any thoughts?

Maurice · 25th October 2012, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Just noted that i have forgotten to upload one picture from the auction. This picture is very interesting since it seems that the tang is round.
Any thoughts?

That's indeed interesting!
Ps. why are they always turning around the handle the wrong way when it had been loose?

Atlantia · 25th October 2012, 10:40 PM

Hi Detlef.

I really like the way that the first 'luk' is so close to the ganga. It really makes the 'waves' look more natural and flowing.

I look forward to seeing waht you do with it.
Best
gene

Timo Nieminen · 25th October 2012, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

Ps. why are they always turning around the handle the wrong way when it had been loose?

The ganja is so obviously a hand-guard, and the rest follows. Natural enough, I think, if one doesn't know about these weapons, and doesn't know where to look for information, and doesn't have a feel for the ergonomics, and the handle is unattached. But often I think a handle is removed and turned around; which I have less understanding of. "Here is something I know nothing about, but I know I know more about it than the previous owners, or the ignorant maker"?

Sajen · 26th October 2012, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

That's indeed interesting!
Ps. why are they always turning around the handle the wrong way when it had been loose?

Hi Maurice,

yes, I think so. My interest is if it has to do with the age of the blade or the origin.

For the second point I think that Timo give the answer.

Regards,

Detlef

Maurice · 26th October 2012, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

For the second point I think that Timo give the answer.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef,

Ofcourse, I was only joking as I crossed another recent thread with the handle the wrong way...

Regards,
Maurice

Sajen · 26th October 2012, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Detlef.

I really like the way that the first 'luk' is so close to the ganga. It really makes the 'waves' look more natural and flowing.

I look forward to seeing waht you do with it.
Best
gene

Hi Gene,

I think that this is one reason what let me bid. I really can't remember to have seen such a blade before.

I will keep you updated about the progress.

Best regards,

Detlef

Battara · 26th October 2012, 02:59 AM

Well it is not really round, but slightly squarish at the ganga.

That being said, I am wondering if this might not be early 1800s. Hard to pin down.

kai · 29th October 2012, 11:34 PM

Hello Detlef,

Nice score again!

Quote:

Well it is not really round, but slightly squarish at the ganga.

I'm with Jose: This doesn't look like an archaic tang. Interesting variant though!

Quote:

That being said, I am wondering if this might not be early 1800s. Hard to pin down.

Regarding the blade, I'd not place this much earlier than mid-19th c., more likely second half of 19th c. IMVHO.

I believe that the blade originated in Sulu and that the silver inlay was added later, possibly after the blade ended up on Mindanao. Possibly Maguindanao work?

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 30th October 2012, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Detlef,

Nice score again!

I believe that the blade originated in Sulu and that the silver inlay was added later, possibly after the blade ended up on Mindanao. Possibly Maguindanao work?

Hello Kai,

thank you. Very interesting suggestion. So I am maybe correct with my first feeling.

Regards,

Detlef

kai · 30th October 2012, 10:17 AM

Yes, I have seen several of this type - need to dig out pics. Usually this design is obscured by the lower asang-asang crossing the elongated gape...

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 30th October 2012, 08:16 PM

Agree, the missing asang-asang let look this part of the blade different.

I am curious to see your pictures, they will give also a clue how the asang-asang and the handle attachments have to look.

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 17th November 2012, 01:52 PM

Have received the kris and have to assert that the handle is badly demaged so I have given it to my friend who is a very good wood restorer to fix the break and give back the handle the front beak while I decide to let the back beak like this. The tang is indeed squarish at the base. Now I will polish the blade.

Regards,

Detlef

Battara · 17th November 2012, 06:43 PM

Oh W W........I had no idea that the hilt was in such bad shape!

Sajen · 18th November 2012, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Oh W W........I had no idea that the hilt was in such bad shape!

I also haven't thought like this, it wasn't to seen by the pictures from the seller. When I opened the copper wire from the hilt the hilt fall in two parts. So i bring the hilt to my friend to see what he will be able to manage. In two or three weeks I will know more.

Sajen · 18th November 2012, 07:10 PM

Just cleaned the blade and think that it was done before but very unprofessional maybe with some sort of grinding machine and now it is to seen that the inlays orginally going much more down to the tip of the blade but there only remains still to seen.

Jose maybe know if this can be restored.

Battara · 19th November 2012, 01:10 AM

Ok some of the remaining engraving can be worked and replace the inlay. Areas where the grinder took out the engraved areas - no hope.

Sorry for the mixed news.....

Sajen · 19th November 2012, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Ok some of the remaining engraving can be worked and replace the inlay. Areas where the grinder took out the engraved areas - no hope.

Sorry for the mixed news.....

Hi Jose,

no problem, thank you for open answer!

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 21st April 2013, 12:45 AM

The wood work at the handle is finished.

Battara · 21st April 2013, 01:03 AM

Nice job. Much better and more stable than it was previously.

Sajen · 3rd February 2014, 09:20 AM

Have received some pictures from Jose, he have finished the work at the handle. He is sure that this kris coming from Tawi-Tawi based on research he have done. Here two pictures of the excellent work he have done.
Now he want to replace the missing inlays and the kris will get a scabbard as well.

Sajen · 3rd February 2014, 09:29 AM

And here two pictures upon he based his opinion that this kris is from Tawi-Tawi. One is from Stone and one from Ashoka arts.

24th October 2012, 08:56 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	And again a kris! Just win another kris by epray. I don't have a clue from where this blade; maybe Sulu? As age I would guess end of 19th century? Blade have silver inlays and until now I can't remember to have seen an "elephant trunk" design like this before. This kris need a lot of restoration, new asang-asang and the bands of of the handle including the binding. Jose, you would like to do it? I don't plan to restore the broken crest of the pommel since the break seems to be old and patinated. What you think? Your comments are very welcome, Detlef Attached Images

25th October 2012, 09:17 PM	#9
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Just noted that i have forgotten to upload one picture from the auction. This picture is very interesting since it seems that the tang is round. Any thoughts? Attached Images

17th November 2012, 01:52 PM	#21
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Have received the kris and have to assert that the handle is badly demaged so I have given it to my friend who is a very good wood restorer to fix the break and give back the handle the front beak while I decide to let the back beak like this. The tang is indeed squarish at the base. Now I will polish the blade. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

18th November 2012, 07:10 PM	#24
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Just cleaned the blade and think that it was done before but very unprofessional maybe with some sort of grinding machine and now it is to seen that the inlays orginally going much more down to the tip of the blade but there only remains still to seen. Jose maybe know if this can be restored. Attached Images

21st April 2013, 12:45 AM	#27
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	The wood work at the handle is finished. Attached Images

24th October 2012, 09:17 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A VERY INTERESTING OLD KRIS. I HAVE OFTEN WONDERED IF SOME OF THESE DESIGNS MAY REPRESENT THE LARGE WHITE FISH EAGLES FOUND THRU-OUT THE REGION. ONE OF YOUR PICTURES SURE LOOKS LIKE AN EAGLE WITH ITS EYE AND NOSTRILS AND A FINE CURVED BEAK. GIVEN THE IMPORTANCE PLACED ON LARGE BIRDS IN MANY SOCIETYS OVER THE WORLD I DO NOT SEE WHY THIS WOULD NOT APPLY TO THE ENTIRE AREA MALAYSIA, INDONESIA AND THE PHILIPPINES ESPECIALLY IN MORE ANCIENT TIMES. IN THE AMERICAS THE THUNDERBIRD, EAGLE AND RAVEN ARE IMPORTANT IN MANY LEGENDS AND TRIBAL LORE AND CEREMONIES. THE MAORI NO DOUBT HAVE MANY LEGENDS OF THE MOA AND OTHER BIRDS. THE DAYAK HAVE SPECIAL BELIEFS ABOUT THE HORNBILL AND ARGUS PHESANT AND NO DOUBT OTHER BIRDS. VARIOUS BIRDS ARE USED ON MASKS AND CARVEINGS IN AFRICA AND IN NEW GUINEA. MANKIND HAS ALWAYS LIKED TO DECK THEMSELVES OUT IN FEATHERS. SO JUST TO STIR THE POT I WILL SAY IT REPRESENTS THE LARGE WHITE FISH EAGLE THAT ROAMS FREELY AMONG THE LANDS AND ISLANDS OF THAT PART OF THE WORLD, NOT THE ELEPHANT OR MAKARA WHILE I AM STIRRING PERHAPS THIS FORM OF HANDLE REPRESENTS A EAGLE HEAD INSTEAD OF THE LOUD AND OFTEN OBNOXIOUS COCATOO WHICH TO MY KNOWLEGE HAS NO PLACE IN TRIBAL FOLKLORE IN THE PHILIPPINES.

25th October 2012, 02:49 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	You may be onto something Barry. I think that on Maguindanao kris the "eagle" is actually that, not the "elephant" look. I agree that this is old, but that "eagle" is a form I have not seen much of. So I look at the inlaid okir on the blade, which looks either Maranao or Maguindanao.

25th October 2012, 03:02 AM	#4
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	in Mindanao and Sulu, Barry, it's the chicken. with supernatural power.

25th October 2012, 05:01 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	So Ron you think this is the sarimanok? By the way, Detief, you have pm.........

25th October 2012, 10:40 PM	#11
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Detlef. I really like the way that the first 'luk' is so close to the ganga. It really makes the 'waves' look more natural and flowing. I look forward to seeing waht you do with it. Best gene

26th October 2012, 02:59 AM	#16
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Well it is not really round, but slightly squarish at the ganga. That being said, I am wondering if this might not be early 1800s. Hard to pin down.

30th October 2012, 10:17 AM	#19
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Yes, I have seen several of this type - need to dig out pics. Usually this design is obscured by the lower asang-asang crossing the elongated gape... Regards, Kai

30th October 2012, 08:16 PM	#20
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Agree, the missing asang-asang let look this part of the blade different. I am curious to see your pictures, they will give also a clue how the asang-asang and the handle attachments have to look. Regards, Detlef

17th November 2012, 06:43 PM	#22
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Oh W W........I had no idea that the hilt was in such bad shape!

19th November 2012, 01:10 AM	#25
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Ok some of the remaining engraving can be worked and replace the inlay. Areas where the grinder took out the engraved areas - no hope. Sorry for the mixed news.....

21st April 2013, 01:03 AM	#28
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Nice job. Much better and more stable than it was previously.

3rd February 2014, 09:20 AM	#29
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Have received some pictures from Jose, he have finished the work at the handle. He is sure that this kris coming from Tawi-Tawi based on research he have done. Here two pictures of the excellent work he have done. Now he want to replace the missing inlays and the kris will get a scabbard as well. Attached Images

3rd February 2014, 09:29 AM	#30
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	And here two pictures upon he based his opinion that this kris is from Tawi-Tawi. One is from Stone and one from Ashoka arts. Attached Images