Bad Pamor

[sjors]

I read Pamor Buntel Mayit or Pangeran Welang is considered to be dangerous.
Just like Pamor Endas Baya and Pamor Badeala give bad luck.
Can anyone tell me in what way these pamor are considered to be dangerous and why do (or did) people still want to have that kind of keris.

[David]

My own belief is that the idea that there are "bad pamors" is a misunderstanding. There may perhaps be pamors which are not quite suited to every individual, but i don't think that a pamor pattern would be made if it wasn't positive and useful for somebody.
I think Buntel Mayit gets it's bad rap because it has been interpreted to mean "death shroud" (very heavy metal ). There are other whose opinions i respect who have told me that this should really be Buntel Mayat and really means "slanted wrapping".

[sjors]

Buntel Mayit and Buntel Mayat; I saw both writings, refering to te same kind of Pamor and thought that those were just two ways to describe the same thing.
In fact they are different.
Interesting!

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, different words, but both those sets of words refer to the same pamor pattern.

David is correct when he uses the term buntel mayat; buntel mayit is incorrect, even though some noted Javanese authorities give it this name. The reason that buntel mayit developed from buntel mayat is because of the well known Javanese propensity to play with words. Over time it suited the philosophical bent of the Javanese keris fancier's mind to associate the pamor with mystical misfortune.Now we have the situation where probably most Javanese people refer to this pamor as buntel mayit --- even though this is incorrect.

In Bali and Lombok exactly the same pamor is known as tambang badung---Badung rope--- and there is no such connotation of misfortune attached to it, suggesting that the Javanese usage of buntel mayit is a relatively late application, probably as a part of the equally relatively late popular mysticism that surrounds the keris in Jawa.

Again David is absolutely correct when he says that there are no "bad" pamor motifs, per se, however, for those who subscribe to belief in the talismanic power of a pamor motif, it is most certainly possible for a pamor to be badly matched to a person, thus causing that person misfortune.

I do not know pamor pangeran welang; I have checked Haryoguritno, Harsrinuksmo, and Tammens, and cannot find it listed. Can you post an example of what you know as pamor pangeran welang?

[sjors]

Dear Mr. Maisey,

On http://old.blades.free.fr/keris/intr...mor_miring.htm
one is refering to "Buntel Mayit or Pangeran Welang".
So , in the autors opinion Pangeran Welang is the same as Buntel Mayat. (I think).
To be honest I also never heard about it before...

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for that Mr. Sjors.

Who is the author, and where did he get his information? We can probably assume that he did not pull this name out of thin air, so it would be interesting to know the source, and perhaps where that source drew the name from.

He quotes Harsrinuksmo for the illustrations of pamor, but I've just had another look at the entry in Ensiklopedi for that pamor, and it does not mention pangeran welang.

In all honesty, names of pamors can move around a lot. They are not standardised, except perhaps the more common ones, and will have different names in different places. People will give the same pamor a different name, because of some minor difference in execution, still, if pangeran welang were at all a common name somewhere in Jawa, you'd think that Haryoguritno and Harsrinuksmo would have published it. Both lean towards overkill, rather than underkill. Speaking for myself, I cannot recall ever having heard this name used in Central Jawa.

[semar]

Hello when you wants to now more about the meaning of the pamor`s
you have to buy the book of emille van veenendaal he describes the pamor`s
and the magical powers of the pamor

regarts semar

[PenangsangII]

Bad pamor - IMHO, bad to one person doesnt mean bad to another person. The very reason keris is forged is to benefit the owner, so I dont think buntel mayat is bad perse