Double barelled flintlock ottoman pistol

eftihis · 20th September 2018, 12:00 AM

Visiting a friend's collection, i saw this curious double barelled flintlock pistol. I have never seen a similar one! It has 2 different pans, and the one is movable.The way that it is operating is that you first fill one pan with powder, so to be ready, and then you slide the other pan and put it on top of it. You fill it with powder, fire the shot, and then move it on the side so that the lower pan is now visible and ready to be ignited.
IS this a european made arm that was meant for export in the ottoman market? Or it a known type of firearm? Also there are some sort of inscriptions on either side among the wire decoration, it would be great if someone could make a translation.

kahnjar1 · 20th September 2018, 12:54 AM

A most unusual and beautiful pistol IMHO.
The only other styles of double barrel flintlock pistols I have seen are: fixed side by side barrels with left and right hand locks, and turn over barrels with their own locks.
An observation of the subject pistol.....with both pans full of powder, there would be a risk of double discharge UNLESS the pans have a really good seal to stop any spark getting to the lower pan powder.
Stu

Rick · 20th September 2018, 01:00 AM

Looks like an almost guaranteed chain fire to me.

The bottom pan looks very commodious compared to the upper one.

corrado26 · 20th September 2018, 10:20 AM

Here are fotos of a miquelet pistol with a very similar system.
After having given powder to the basic pan one pushs back what is then the bottom of the upper pan and fills this with powder too.l After the first shot - and when you are still alive

- you remove this bottom and can shoot a second time.
corrado26

Kubur · 20th September 2018, 11:50 AM

Hi

What a strange animal...
There is no inscriptions here.
It could be North African, you have this kind of pan on Moroccan guns...

Best,
Kubur

eftihis · 20th September 2018, 12:22 PM

i meant here

OneshotOnekill · 20th September 2018, 06:37 PM

What an Awesome Piece! You rarely see things like this on this my of the Atlantic!

kahnjar1 · 20th September 2018, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi

What a strange animal...
There is no inscriptions here.
It could be North African, you have this kind of pan on Moroccan guns...

Best,
Kubur

No, that is incorrect. The pan on Moroccan guns is a SINGLE pan, with a cover which moves away when the cock comes down. See Snaphaunce lock below...The round piece is the part that moves.
Stu

rickystl · 21st September 2018, 10:31 PM

Hi Eftihis: What a wonderful and interesting pistol. The lock, barrels and hardware look European made for the Ottoman market, and stocked locally somewhere in the Balkans. The lock has a roller on the frizzen, a late flintlock period feature. Usually, oddities like this are commisioned by an individual. And that's probably the case here.
Unless the tolerences/fit of both pans were very precise (where it's almost not moveable) I can't see how you would avoid the lower, secondary pan from ignighting at the same time. How this might have worked would be to prime the first pan only, and after firing the first shot moving the first pan out of the way and re-priming the second pan only. While this might take a few seconds longer, it would pre-clude an accidental discharge of the second barel. Just a guess.
In any case it's a super neat pistol.

Hi Corrado: What a great Spanish pocket/belt pistol. This seems to operate on the same principle. It just uses a slide to expose the second pan versus lifting the pan out of the way. Very clever.

Rick

Kubur · 23rd September 2018, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

it would pre-clude an accidental discharge of the second barel. Just a guess.
Rick

I agree with you Rick.
Have you seen the second hole light in the main pan?
I wonder if it was effective. I saw double pans on Moroccan guns but no hole in the main pan. It must have been done later.

Best,
Kubur

eftihis · 23rd September 2018, 09:22 PM

i found 2 videos that describe how it worked https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ihecrd8E00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DLm2jW4EF4

Fernando K · 24th September 2018, 12:23 AM

Hello everyone

The difference between these last two videos is that the first pan opens automatically after the first shot. The internal mechanism of the lock is shown. It belongs to a thread that has been uploaded in this same forum. Not so Corrado's gun. in which the second bread must be discovered by hand. We do not know its the Ottoman gun has that mechanism, because there is no image of the inside of the lock

Sorry for the translator.

Affectionately. Fernando K

20th September 2018, 10:20 AM	#4
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	Here are fotos of a miquelet pistol with a very similar system. After having given powder to the basic pan one pushs back what is then the bottom of the upper pan and fills this with powder too.l After the first shot - and when you are still alive - you remove this bottom and can shoot a second time. corrado26 Attached Images

20th September 2018, 12:22 PM	#6
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	i meant here Attached Images

20th September 2018, 12:54 AM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	A most unusual and beautiful pistol IMHO. The only other styles of double barrel flintlock pistols I have seen are: fixed side by side barrels with left and right hand locks, and turn over barrels with their own locks. An observation of the subject pistol.....with both pans full of powder, there would be a risk of double discharge UNLESS the pans have a really good seal to stop any spark getting to the lower pan powder. Stu

20th September 2018, 01:00 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Looks like an almost guaranteed chain fire to me. The bottom pan looks very commodious compared to the upper one.

20th September 2018, 11:50 AM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi What a strange animal... There is no inscriptions here. It could be North African, you have this kind of pan on Moroccan guns... Best, Kubur

20th September 2018, 06:37 PM	#7
OneshotOnekill Member Join Date: Sep 2018 Posts: 4	What an Awesome Piece! You rarely see things like this on this my of the Atlantic!

21st September 2018, 10:31 PM	#9
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Eftihis: What a wonderful and interesting pistol. The lock, barrels and hardware look European made for the Ottoman market, and stocked locally somewhere in the Balkans. The lock has a roller on the frizzen, a late flintlock period feature. Usually, oddities like this are commisioned by an individual. And that's probably the case here. Unless the tolerences/fit of both pans were very precise (where it's almost not moveable) I can't see how you would avoid the lower, secondary pan from ignighting at the same time. How this might have worked would be to prime the first pan only, and after firing the first shot moving the first pan out of the way and re-priming the second pan only. While this might take a few seconds longer, it would pre-clude an accidental discharge of the second barel. Just a guess. In any case it's a super neat pistol. Hi Corrado: What a great Spanish pocket/belt pistol. This seems to operate on the same principle. It just uses a slide to expose the second pan versus lifting the pan out of the way. Very clever. Rick

23rd September 2018, 09:22 PM	#11
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	i found 2 videos that describe how it worked https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ihecrd8E00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DLm2jW4EF4

24th September 2018, 12:23 AM	#12
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hello everyone The difference between these last two videos is that the first pan opens automatically after the first shot. The internal mechanism of the lock is shown. It belongs to a thread that has been uploaded in this same forum. Not so Corrado's gun. in which the second bread must be discovered by hand. We do not know its the Ottoman gun has that mechanism, because there is no image of the inside of the lock Sorry for the translator. Affectionately. Fernando K