Comments?

[Mick]

Got any comments on this thiis thing ?











Picture removed per request of the O.P. 7/21/2011

[nechesh]

Cool Raksasa. Certainly looks Balinese to me. What's it made of? Are the stones sapphire? It's hard to tell. Can you post more photos and close-ups. Balinese metal workers still create hilts of this quality and finer, so it's hard to tell how old it is, but for some reason i have a feeling it's a 20th Century piece. Not new, but not very old either. I have to say i really love the raksasa form.

[empu kumis]

Hello dear Mick,

this is the second handle from metal of this kind i have seen. The style is early or mid 17th cent. See my avatar. I dont dare to appraise them to this age without seeing the original. But i don`t think its new. Please let us see the right,left and backside and hairs too. This handle is gilded or of gold and filled with clay?

My Regards

ek

[Mick]

nechesh

The piece is Javanese. It is about three inches tall and the stones are inten. I know the stones are inten because I had them installed.


empu kumis

It is only the third that I have seen. The first was split by a shovel strike while excavating it and the bottom half was flattened out on both sides of the split. The metal is gold and is right now filled with wax to provide support to figure. Besides replacing the inten some small tears of the material was repaired.

I will have to make more photographs to furnish all side views, but basically it is extremely similar to the figures from Cirebon.

[nechesh]

Fascinating. I have never seen Javanese ukiran with set stones so i guess that threw me. Also the gold, these materials are not usual for Jawa. What are inten, i do not know this stone?
You seem to know a bit more about this piece then you are telling, so out with it Mick!

[Mick]

nechesh

Inten is a raw uncut (or slightly cut) diamond from the mines outside of Banjermasin in southern Borneo.

[Sang Keris]

very very nice handle.. !

[John]

Mick,

I've always enjoyed ALL the items you've posted and have saved them for references, if you don't mind . Picked this one when you were in Indonesia?

When it comes to figurine hilts like the one you've posted or Empu Kumis' avatar, I've had futile attempts in finding references as to who the dieties are precisely, their names etc; one always get a general description such as a diety, a raksasa or a god. Still trying to find out who the figures such as yours and EK's are if you or anyone knows.

[capt.smash]

"When it comes to figurine hilts like the one you've posted or Empu Kumis' avatar, I've had futile attempts in finding references as to who the dieties are precisely, their names etc; one always get a general description such as a diety, a raksasa or a god. Still trying to find out who the figures such as yours and EK's are if you or anyone knows"

Hi im also interested in more info in this area, its realy hard going finding anything detailed on this.

p.s. i just figured out how to do the quote thing ..ohh well ill know next time.

[Alam Shah]

Based on references from Ensiklopedi Keris, pg.504, the handle is definitely from Cirebon. It's a raksasa kerdil. Mainly it is made from wood and normally it is not fitted with any jewels.
Materials and style might be incorporated with inspiration from Balinese handles. (My 2 cents worth.)

[Naga Sasra]

I believe I have had the pleasure to inspect this handle in person, thank you Mick.
From what I remember it is correctly identified as from Jawa made in the 16-17th century based upon a model that date back to the Central Javanese Hindu era (about 9th century)
I also seem to remember it had a core of resin and was covered in high karat gold foil. The attribute in the right hand is the club, which points to Raden Bima. The cone shape on the socket also suggest that the item is missing the selut.
Either way it is a great piece of history. Thank you for sharing this with us all.

For the forum members that are seeking written information on keris handles, may I suggest Keris-Griffe by Martin Kerner, CH-3116 Kirchdorf, Switzerland

[Alam Shah]

Thanks for the reference, mate. Will check it out before further comment.

[John]

Originally Posted by Naga Sasra

The attribute in the right hand is the club, which points to Raden Bima.

Good to see an "old boy" speak as always...

Am I right to assume this Raden Bima is the second of the Pandawa brothers of the Mahabarata epic (Yudhistira, Bima, Arjuna, Nakula and Sahadewa)? Don't quite recall the club attribute.

[Naga Sasra]

John, you are absolutely correct, Bima is the second of the Pandawa brothers. He is shown as an armourer in the relief of Candi Sukuh among other places.
He has been iconized in many different ways with attribute in his right hand (sword or club) or no attribute at all, he has also been shown with or with out a hair bun and with or without long thump nails, sitting, squatting or standing.

For more information I suggest “Keris-Griffe aus Museen und Privatsammlungen” by Martin Kerner. It is written mostly in German but with some English translations.

Oh John, thanks for the “old boy” attribution

[nechesh]

Sorry guys, you are losing me here. I don't understand the connection being made between this raksasa ukiran and Raden Bima. Why would one of the Pandawa brothers be depicted as a demon. I also do not see the club Naga Sasra is talking about depicted in the right hand of this hilt. Isn't the figure just holding his knees. My understanding of the raksasa is that they are a class of demons, devouring giants, not just one identifiable deity. Am i wrong?

[Rick]

Joining Nechesh in his confusion .

This would be Bima ?

[Alam Shah]

Joining the confusion...Have a look at Cirebon hilts. This is raksasa kerdil.
Another reference link.
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...north_java.htm

[John]

Rick, is your example an affirmative Bima?

Erik and Alam Shah, thanks for puttings things on the table. Figurines as such are fascinating but references have been vague it seems. So as it is; Bima or Raksasa Kerdil? or what?

[Alam Shah]

Mick's a Cirebon raksasa kerdil while Rick's example is a Bima.
I think, Rick is giving the pics for comparison. The difference is quite obvious.

Below, link to a drawing of a Bima hilt.
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...kiran_bali.htm

[Naga Sasra]

I guess the “old boy” attribution is in order, as it really seems that I need a new set of glasses, I was mistaken in what I saw as a club in his right hand was in fact his knee, I am truly sorry.
This however, do not change the attribution to Bima with the time period previously stated.
Let me start with the main characters in our discussion.

PENDAWA: The name Pandawa (The Warriors) is derived from the story of a noble family who are the lead characters in the story of the Mahabharata. This story was written more than 2000 years ago in India, the story was brought to Indonesia where it became popular, particularly on the Islands of Bali and Jawa.
The story is of the constant struggle between good and evil, and jealousy and power struggles between two sets of cousins the Pandawas representing the good forces, and the Kurawas the evil forces, who both want to rule their kingdom.
The second of the Pandawa brothers is Bima.

BIMA: Is known for his great strength and violence in battle where he wields a club or sword, he has round protruding eyes, a long nose and long thumbnails, he may or may not show his teeth, but will never have his mouth wide open. He also have or have not the other characteristics that I mentioned earlier.

RAKSASA OR RAKSASI: (female) in Hindu mythology is a type of demon or goblin; they have the power to change their shape at will and can appear as animals, as monsters and the female as a beautiful women. They are most powerful in the evening during the dark period of the new moon, but they are dispelled by the rising sun, sort of like a combination of a werewolf and a vampire.
Raksasas are demons with strongly colored complexions, bulging eyes and wide-opened mouths, which display rows of glittering teeth.

As for Rick’s handle, it is an example of Bima, as he do not have his mouth wide open and he carry his club in his right hand. And have a long nose.. Nice example Rick.

Regarding the attribution on Dominique’s web site, from Pictures from "UKIRAN - Essai de classification des poignées de kris de l'archipel indonésien" from Gaspard de Narval, I will respectfully disagree with some of his attributions, such as the Raksasa mentioned, look at Mick’s handle, I see a large thumb and a set of teeth, but definitely not the wide-open mouth that would make him a Raksasa. I guess this would mean that I also respectfully disagree with Bambangs attribution. Maybe I am in deep trouble here!

[nechesh]

Sorry Naga Sasra, i think i must respectfully disagree if what you are saying is that Mick's ukiran is not a Raksasa. Besides bearing his teeth, this figure also has fangs. Does Bima have fangs? I have three Raksasa hilts, two in this same crouching position that bear a striking resemblance to Mick's, though made of wood, and one standing. If these are not raksasa could you post a photo of what you believe is? Keep in mind that depictions of Raksasa from Hindu mythology may not appear exactly the same as they do in Jawa and Bali. I have never known a wide opened mouth to be a requirement. Aside from de Narval i have seen this hilt form IDed time and time again as Raksasa by many other authors.

[Alam Shah]

Dear Naga Sasra,
Based on references from Bambang Harsrinuksmo - Ensiklopedi Keris, pg.504, the photo of the handle looks exactly the same as Mick's (minus the jewels).

Naga wrote:
> I guess this would mean that I also respectfully disagree with Bambangs attribution. Maybe I am in deep trouble here!

I will look for some other sources to get a 'beyond reasonable doubt' verdict..

[Naga Sasra]

Don't be sorry nechesh, I am happy that we have this discussion, and I do understand the confusion, as I agree with your logic.

Yes, Bima can have fangs and I have the pictures of these in Martin Kerners Book. Unfortunately I cannot just copy what is his copyright for the obvious reasons.
I do understand that the Hindu mythology images are not necessarily what would be depicted in Jawa and Bali, and the photos that are in the book show handles from Jawa and Bali.

I have like you seen most handles with ugly faces being called Raksasa in most of the Keris and Hulu books, which if they in fact are demons is okay, but if they are not demons and are other figures from history, then I do not believe that is fine, which is why I continue on the subject.

Here again we suffer from lack of prudent evidence, as way too little have been written on the subject and it is my sincere hope that this conversation can lead to some understanding of the Hindu type handles.

[Rick]

I had posted the ukiran for confirmation that it was a Bima . Earlier I had been told it was Bayu .

Now here is yet another figural ukiran I can't identify :

[nechesh]

C'mon Rick, it should be clear to see ......That's Santa Claus!

[Rick]

Originally Posted by nechesh

C'mon Rick, it should be clear to see ......That's Santa Claus!

Seriously though , another Bima ?

I know it's funky .

[Mick]

If those are long thumbnails and not a belly button, Yes

[John]

Originally Posted by Naga Sasra

PENDAWA:...The second of the Pandawa brothers is Bima.

BIMA: Is known for his great strength and violence in battle where he wields a club or sword, he has round protruding eyes, a long nose and long thumbnails, he may or may not show his teeth, but will never have his mouth wide open. He also have or have not the other characteristics that I mentioned earlier.

RAKSASA OR RAKSASI: (female) in Hindu mythology is a type of demon or goblin; they have the power to change their shape at will and can appear as animals, as monsters and the female as a beautiful women. They are most powerful in the evening during the dark period of the new moon, but they are dispelled by the rising sun, sort of like a combination of a werewolf and a vampire.
Raksasas are demons with strongly colored complexions, bulging eyes and wide-opened mouths, which display rows of glittering teeth.

After seeing your post Erik, I had a look at the Mahabharata last night (Indian version) in as Bima is concerned and noted Bima's weapon is a mace (club) and he's known to have termimated raksasas and married a sister of one after she appeared as an attractive woman...Interesting!