Shell guard question.

Pukka Bundook · 21st February 2008, 08:10 AM

Hello chaps,

I have a question for you.
On Jims very interesting thread re. Scottsh swords, we talked about linings in the basket hilt, and it was agreed on they were very common.
I have an old English back-sword, from I'm told the 1630's with a shell-guard, and a silvered gryffon-head pommel. (silver's nearly all gone, and it now looks mainly brass!)

Q;
Would a shell guard on such a sword also have originally had a liner?

I do thank you that there is this forum! we can bring any question, and nearly always get an answer!

Best wishes,
Richard.

Paul Macdonald · 21st February 2008, 12:39 PM

Can you post any pictures Richard?

Pukka Bundook · 21st February 2008, 04:37 PM

Paul,
Thank you for your interest!
I will try and take some today for you and post ASAP.

It is not in great condition.....looks a bit like it lived underground for a while.

Very best wishes,
Richard.

Pukka Bundook · 23rd February 2008, 04:43 AM

Here are the pictures Paul:

Thank you for taking the time to look at them.

Best Wishes,
R

Jim McDougall · 24th February 2008, 07:50 AM

That really is a nice example Richard! I've always been drawn to these swords in untouched condition, and this is a very unusual hilt for the English horsemans swords of this period. The hilt is very similar to type II on p.251 of Mazansky ("British Basket Hilted Swords", Cyril Mazansky, 2005, Royal Armouries). This example has similar long neck zoomorphic pommel (possibly lionhead), with fluted grip of possibly ebony and is cited as Royal Armouries # IX1318, which is dated c.1625-50. It also has the shell type hilt guard.
Another similar on p.274, VAib.

Another example (op.cit. type II Di , is of 'mortuary' type from York Castle museum and of the same period, c.1620-50. This particular sword with the more encompassed basket type hilt regarded as semi-basket does have a liner.

While there has been discussion on the liners on Scottish basket hilts, it is unclear as far as I know how much this feature occurred on the English forms. It does seem however, that it did appear in at least some of them. Some of the English variations of cavalry basket hilts did have liners, so I would presume it would have been quite possible, though probably not exclusively favored.

Naturally this is simply my opinion based on what information is presently at hand, and it would be great to hear from others with more information.

I think it be interesting as well to look more into the gryphon used on English hilts rather than the lionhead in the 17th century.

All best regards,
Jim

Paul Macdonald · 24th February 2008, 02:29 PM

That is one beautiful sword Richard,

As far as I have seen, the only sword types I have known with liners have been full or half basket hilts.

I have never seen a hilt of your type with any evidence of liner. It is not a world away from a walloon style hilt, and all that I have seen are unlined.

The only other type of cushioning protection I know of in sword hilts from this period is ricasso wrapping, usually in velvet, for sideswords or early rapiers, given that one or two fingers around the ricasso are necessary for use.

All the best,

Macdonald

Pukka Bundook · 24th February 2008, 04:25 PM

Jim and Paul,
I thank you so much for your very interesting replies!

I am very pleased you find this old sword interesting, and indeed beutiful.

I suppose it stands to reason, that a sword with this type of guard would not be lined, but I did not know for sure. Thank you for your answers.

I also thank you for the name of the book, Jim, and will also check into York castle, and the Royal armouries.
(used to live near York..)

Did you notice the old scarf weld, right at the hilt?
It looks like it was broken there in it's working life.
The blade is still very supple, and has a slight "droop" when held out straight.

it feels altogether lovely in the hand,...even if it has "lived rough" for what appears to have been a very long time!

Thank you again, and I would be Very interested in hearing from anyone else with a similar sword. esp. with the gryphon pommel.

Paul,
I'd give an arm and a leg to attend your Highland training program!!!!!
..........but if I did, I think it would rather compromise my performance!

It's been years since I was up in that country. Quite miss it.

Thank you again.

Richard.

Jim McDougall · 25th February 2008, 01:34 AM

Hi Richard,
Just came up with an interesting thought. The gryphon seems to have been much favored in Dutch swords in about this time. (Rick....it came up with the Shaver Kool sword.......oh no!!!

)

I wonder if that might have some bearing on this example? Most of the English examples had a lionhead.

All the best,
Jim

ariel · 25th February 2008, 03:38 AM

Very nice

Rick · 1st March 2008, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The gryphon seems to have been much favored in Dutch swords in about this time. (Rick....it came up with the Shaver Kool sword.......oh no!!!

)

All the best,
Jim

Shaver Cool !?!!! ......... slowly I turned ...

Now cut that out Jim !!

Jim McDougall · 1st March 2008, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Shaver Cool !?!!! ......... slowly I turned ...

Now cut that out Jim !!

JUDL!!!!Those words are engraved in our brains forever Rick!!!!

Pukka Bundook · 1st March 2008, 03:51 PM

Jim,
I don't have a clue what you and Rick are talking about,......But it is Good to be back!

All bets wishes,

Richard.

Rick · 1st March 2008, 05:15 PM

Hi Richard , it's an old joke, a reference to this:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000140.html

I think this was the longest running thread (5 years) ever on this forum .

Best,
Rick

21st February 2008, 08:10 AM	#1
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Shell guard question. Hello chaps, I have a question for you. On Jims very interesting thread re. Scottsh swords, we talked about linings in the basket hilt, and it was agreed on they were very common. I have an old English back-sword, from I'm told the 1630's with a shell-guard, and a silvered gryffon-head pommel. (silver's nearly all gone, and it now looks mainly brass!) Q; Would a shell guard on such a sword also have originally had a liner? I do thank you that there is this forum! we can bring any question, and nearly always get an answer! Best wishes, Richard.

1st March 2008, 05:15 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	The Thread That Wouldn't Die Hi Richard , it's an old joke, a reference to this: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000140.html I think this was the longest running thread (5 years) ever on this forum . Best, Rick

21st February 2008, 12:39 PM	#2
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	Can you post any pictures Richard?

21st February 2008, 04:37 PM	#3
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Paul, Thank you for your interest! I will try and take some today for you and post ASAP. It is not in great condition.....looks a bit like it lived underground for a while. Very best wishes, Richard.

23rd February 2008, 04:43 AM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Here are the pictures Paul: Thank you for taking the time to look at them. Best Wishes, R

24th February 2008, 07:50 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	That really is a nice example Richard! I've always been drawn to these swords in untouched condition, and this is a very unusual hilt for the English horsemans swords of this period. The hilt is very similar to type II on p.251 of Mazansky ("British Basket Hilted Swords", Cyril Mazansky, 2005, Royal Armouries). This example has similar long neck zoomorphic pommel (possibly lionhead), with fluted grip of possibly ebony and is cited as Royal Armouries # IX1318, which is dated c.1625-50. It also has the shell type hilt guard. Another similar on p.274, VAib. Another example (op.cit. type II Di , is of 'mortuary' type from York Castle museum and of the same period, c.1620-50. This particular sword with the more encompassed basket type hilt regarded as semi-basket does have a liner. While there has been discussion on the liners on Scottish basket hilts, it is unclear as far as I know how much this feature occurred on the English forms. It does seem however, that it did appear in at least some of them. Some of the English variations of cavalry basket hilts did have liners, so I would presume it would have been quite possible, though probably not exclusively favored. Naturally this is simply my opinion based on what information is presently at hand, and it would be great to hear from others with more information. I think it be interesting as well to look more into the gryphon used on English hilts rather than the lionhead in the 17th century. All best regards, Jim

24th February 2008, 02:29 PM	#6
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	That is one beautiful sword Richard, As far as I have seen, the only sword types I have known with liners have been full or half basket hilts. I have never seen a hilt of your type with any evidence of liner. It is not a world away from a walloon style hilt, and all that I have seen are unlined. The only other type of cushioning protection I know of in sword hilts from this period is ricasso wrapping, usually in velvet, for sideswords or early rapiers, given that one or two fingers around the ricasso are necessary for use. All the best, Macdonald

24th February 2008, 04:25 PM	#7
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Jim and Paul, I thank you so much for your very interesting replies! I am very pleased you find this old sword interesting, and indeed beutiful. I suppose it stands to reason, that a sword with this type of guard would not be lined, but I did not know for sure. Thank you for your answers. I also thank you for the name of the book, Jim, and will also check into York castle, and the Royal armouries. (used to live near York..) Did you notice the old scarf weld, right at the hilt? It looks like it was broken there in it's working life. The blade is still very supple, and has a slight "droop" when held out straight. it feels altogether lovely in the hand,...even if it has "lived rough" for what appears to have been a very long time! Thank you again, and I would be Very interested in hearing from anyone else with a similar sword. esp. with the gryphon pommel. Paul, I'd give an arm and a leg to attend your Highland training program!!!!! ..........but if I did, I think it would rather compromise my performance! It's been years since I was up in that country. Quite miss it. Thank you again. Richard.

25th February 2008, 01:34 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Hi Richard, Just came up with an interesting thought. The gryphon seems to have been much favored in Dutch swords in about this time. (Rick....it came up with the Shaver Kool sword.......oh no!!! ) I wonder if that might have some bearing on this example? Most of the English examples had a lionhead. All the best, Jim

25th February 2008, 03:38 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Very nice

1st March 2008, 03:51 PM	#12
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Jim, I don't have a clue what you and Rick are talking about,......But it is Good to be back! All bets wishes, Richard.