Very interesting find! Roman lead sling 'bullets'

[M ELEY]

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2016/...tish-fort.html

I guess I always assumed most of the sling weapons of that era would have used only stones or perhaps clay missiles (like the clay grenades of the period). Very interesting article!

[Timo Nieminen]

The Greeks and Hellenistic states used lead bullets a lot. AFAIK, Xenophon, Anabasis has the earliest literary mention, and they become common in the Greek world at about that time (including the Greek end of Persia).

The Romans followed in Greek footsteps.

Lead sling bullets are effective ammunition, and if I was an ancient military slinger, I would be pleased to have a plentiful supply. I never measured the performance difference between stones and lead bullets, but on the very few times I used them, I felt they gave better range and accuracy compared to stones.

[fernando]

Most interesting topic, Mark -

[Henk]

I do remember the explanation of a historian of using lead bullets in stead of stone by the Romans. The impact of a lead bullet was proven to be a heavier injury also by the fact that lead was toxic.

[Kmaddock]

Being a more dense material it would definitely be a better projectile
However,
I do not think the toxicity of lead was any way relevant to it being a projectile material.

The Romans used lead acetate as a sweetener for their wine and lead containers for their drinks, this would imply they had no knowledge of the lead toxicity

Regards

Ken

[kronckew]

...and they used lead water pipes, some suspect the effects of lead poisoning is a contributing reason for the decline and 'fall' of the western empire.

many slingers cast their own shot from lead in holes poked in a convenient clay surface in holes poked in it with their thumbs, cast shot even can show the thumbnails. (as below)

slingers could (and can) propel lead shot at speeds that provided penetrative bone destroying wounds more like modern-ish musketry, not like someone throwing stones that bounce off. the toxicity is not a factor, compared to the sheer physical damage. lead bullets are still often left alone and not removed if not near vital structures as they get encysted - walled off - by the body so lead absorption is minimal. acidic beverages in chalices however produce nice easily absorbed lead salts and may be why some emperors were a bit mad.

like the atlatl, slings can still provide lethality, and they are cheap and easy to make. just because it's ancient tech doesn't mean it's not effective within it's range.

heck, col. churchill* even used his longbow with noted effect in ww2, and special forces still have crossbows available for special purposes.

*- mad jack churchill even went ashore from his landing craft, claymore in hand, followed by a piper, he captured a german unit with just his sword, one at a time.

[Pukka Bundook]

Kronckew,
Is that a sling missile? .....never seen the likes of that before.

They Still use lead water pipes as well, Europe and even in Canada.
Might explain a lot!

[Battara]

Reminds me of the old lead bullets once used a century ago.............

[kronckew]

yes, thumbshot. the acorn and double ogival shapes were the most common tho. found the original ref for the picture, see attached. smaller drilled shot whistled when throw, were almost impossible to see coming and were used to terrorise the enemy. they could be thrown like grapeshot, 3 or 4 at a time.

i always wondered why canucks were 'special'.

found another ref that indicated tests with lead shot revealed they could be thrown 300-400 metres and had the kinetic energy of a .44 magnum. roman surgeons even had special instruments for removing lead shot from victims.

the greeks were fond of casting litle messages on their shot, similar to those we chalked onto bombs for delivery to our opponents 'catch this' and 'this is for dessert'. 'fly accurately', and even 'Attack Octavian's a****hole'. presumeably by a marcus antonius supporter. (MA lost tho)

[M ELEY]

Love that thumbshot! It makes sense if the mold used to make the lead shot was using the so called lost wax casting. What easier way to make a wax mold for the later lead projectile than to stick one's thumb in the wax!

The article I attached that started the thread shows a rounder shot. I'm assuming this was lead poured into water? I remember an old thread where we talked about 'shot towers' that poured lead from its spire down into a vat of water, the natural shape of the falling metallic liquid being round shot.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

The article I attached that started the thread shows a rounder shot. I'm assuming this was lead poured into water? I remember an old thread where we talked about 'shot towers' that poured lead from its spire down into a vat of water, the natural shape of the falling metallic liquid being round shot.

They were cast in two-part moulds. The pics below show two Ancient Greek ones, one with an intaglio maker's mark (TIMON,).

[Timo Nieminen]

Two-part molds for multiple shot could also have them arranged in a chain. I don't know whether tree or chain was the most common. I've seen replicas of molds for casting single shot, but I haven't seen any original old single shot molds.

I think thumbshot were just for emergency use, if a proper mold wasn't available. Mainly because the classic lead shot, like a an egg with pointy ends, is a very good shape for slinging, and a thumb-tip isn't as good and will have worse aerodynamics.

[kronckew]

probably whistled a bit tho. i'd try but my lead casting in the kitchen days are long gone...

as you note, it's a field expedient for when you are away from the supply depot up on the wall staring at the hairy gingers and a bit short on ammo but have some local's roof lead or pipes to scrounge. (arbeia is near the eastern end of hadrian's wall.)

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Wayne,
Hairy Ginger here , lead pipe and roofing purloined long ago and sold to an enterprising East End entrepreneur
Regards,
Norman.

[kronckew]

so that's where our church roof went....

i didn't want to stereotype, but....

[Norman McCormick]

I'll take those stereotypes any day.

[kronckew]

there is a male or two in the back you can have, i'll take a few of the ones in front with the longer hair and the chest bumps.

reminds me of an old joke:

a young bull and his son are at the top of a hill and spot a herd of cows in the valley below. the young one says 'dad, lets run down and make love to a couple of those cows. dad says 'let's walk down and make love to all of them'.

is that thus an ethnographic antique joke?

[Norman McCormick]

is that thus an ethnographic antique joke?[/QUOTE]



Most definitely

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

... is that thus an ethnographic antique joke?

Well ... so far !

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Perhaps these 'ginger maidens' are more appropriate to this site as all but one are bearing arms.
On a more serious note the notion of Shieldmaidens as a fiction of the sagas is being rethought as osteoarchaeologists are finding that a number of Viking era graves filled with weapons that were assumed to be the burials of male warriors are in fact internments of females. Whether they were warriors or not is still debatable but knowing Nordic and Celtic women as well as I do including a mother and daughter who are particularly close to me , I have no doubt that these redoubtable women took their place in the Viking shield wall and in the Celtic war chariots along with their male counterparts. Bonnie lassies one and all.
Regards,
Norman.

https://blog.britishmuseum.org/2014/...and-valkyries/


http://www.medievalhistories.com/war...e-scandinavia/

[fernando]

I see you didn't find one armed with a sling, Norman .

[Norman McCormick]

[fernando]

So you were prepared for what was coming .

[Norman McCormick]

YUP