Help Identify - Chinese execution sword?

DaveA · 1st October 2007, 06:11 AM

Hello,

I recently acquired this sword in a lot, without identification other than perhaps it is Chinese and was used for execution. Seems short for that purpose, but it is very heavy and sharp. The blade is 21 inches long, 27 inches overall. Sharp on the convex side. A small "medallion" is affixed to the blade as shown in the pictures.

Any opinions? Small photos below (larger ones available). Thanks in advance for your help.

- David

DaveA · 2nd October 2007, 11:20 PM

The resemblance there, but not the "hook", although my sword does resemble the nglala execution sword (consistent with Burton's comments, below).

"Book of the Sword", p.139 fig. 141

Quote:

The falchion of Ashanti, Dahome, and Benin, the murderous despotisms of western intertropical Africa, terminates in a whorl. This is also the shape of the Chinese Sabre-knife, with which criminals were dispatched...

RSWORD · 3rd October 2007, 03:04 AM

Dave,

What you have is Chinese and appears to be a glaive or polearm blade that has been remounted like a sword. Hard to say if it was used specifically for executions. More likely it was put together at the turn of the 19th and 20th century for sale as an exotic trinket.

Jim McDougall · 3rd October 2007, 05:13 AM

As Rsword suggests, this is an item probably put together during the Boxer Rebellion period, as forces of various legations there sought souveniers and exotica to recall this great adventure. Chinese martial artists used most dramatic looking weapons and theatrics to impress the foreign powers present as well as to intimidate and appear menacing. Sometimes gruesome executions did take place using such exaggerated weapons, but there was no prescribed weapon form for such events as far as I am aware.

In the Burton book, it seems in research some time ago I discovered that a number of the illustrations and referenced captions were actually in error, the whorled sword that Burton captioned as 'Chinese sabre knife' was actually a Dahomean hwi if I recall. In the list of sources in Burton's book he lists the reference "Illustrated History of Arms and Armour" by Auguste Demmin, London, 1877. With this he grumbles that "...the Oriental notices are deficient, and the translator has made them worse". Unfortunately, by using the 'Chinese sabre knife reference' from the Demmin book, he perpetuated the error.

DaveA · 3rd October 2007, 05:27 AM

Thank you both for your insights and a bit of history lesson! That is exactly why I jumped into this hobby. Greatly appreciated.

- David

RSWORD · 3rd October 2007, 03:03 PM

David

It is quite an enjoyable hobby and when that collecting bug hits you, watch out!

Jim McDougall · 3rd October 2007, 03:52 PM

You bet Dave!! and wisely said Rsword!!

Its a fantastic hobby, and exciting to hold and study actual pieces of history. The key if you are going to collect....learn as much as you can on the weapons you will be collecting. We can all attest to the trickery and deceit that plagues honest collectors and dealers, and the lessons usually arent cheap.
All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 6th October 2007, 10:18 PM

In looking at this interesting item more, the riveted on brass device is very unusual. I really dont recall such things riveted to the blade in this fashion. Also, what symbolism might be present?
If I am not mistaken, the floral design may be five petaled lotus? In the depicted items I can make out what seems to be a bat? but not sure on the others.
Sometimes more review on such symbolic application might reveal more on the period and possibly group, region and intended use of the item. Although many such weapons are written off as tourist fare, many may have been actually ceremonial items for the secret organizations that often existed in China and for that matter elsewhere as the Chinese dispersed for work.

Can any of those whose field includes Chinese items say more on this device and the symbols?

DaveA · 6th October 2007, 11:02 PM

Here is a larger picture of the brass device on the sword (800 x 600).
The device is identical on both sides of the blade.

Is this blade a variant of a Quan Dao (Kwan Dao, Guan Dao) polearm?

Is this possibly a plum blossom shape? I'm told there is such a thing as a "plum blossom sword".

If one takes the center of the device to be "ground" and rotates the sword, then I can identify in three areas: leaves, a bird, and a deer. The other two are mysteries. My son says one looks like a city (mountains?) and the other a hat or helmet.

Ideas?

- Dave

Klas Larsson · 8th October 2007, 11:40 PM

The lower left animal is a bat, as suggsted above, and used as symbol of luck, because it has the sound "fu" just as the word for luck. It's often used on weapons, often on straight swords.

The ones you mention could maybe be associated with the Eight Immortals, popular taoist deities, you can google on that. I think at least the deer makes sense in that context, maybe the leaves and the bird to, not sure, check up. But the ear shaped thingy... a symbol of Mickey Mouse?

yuanzhumin · 9th October 2007, 02:31 AM

I'm not at home to check on my books, but I'm sure of the following.
This brass device is in the shape of a plum blossom that is the symbol for courage and hope (the plum flower is blossoming in winter, despite the cold).
The plum blossom is also a more recent symbol for the Republic of China, because of the courage and hope it means but also because of the parallel done between the five leaves of the flower and the five branches of the Republican government. Following the wishes of Sun Yat-sen, the chinese republic founder and father of the chinese nation (considered as such in Taiwan AND in China), there are 5 powers -"Yuan" : legislative, executive, judiciary, examination and control.
Klas has already identified the bat, symbol of luck.
Just on top of it, I see the deer, meaning longevity and prosperity, but when used for a soldier or an aministrative officer, it means glory.
Then we have the peach, classic symbol of longevity.
I can't identify the one on the right, right now.
But the last one, just before the bat or on the right of it, is the symbol for the gold ingot. In other word, money and fortune.
Typical chinese symbols. At least, we are sure this is a chinese sword, with some ritual or formal use, because of the symbols on it. May be, dating from the first years of the Republic of China, at the time of the warlords. May be before, if the plum blossom symbol has no link with the Republic.

Yuanzhumin

yuanzhumin · 9th October 2007, 02:57 AM

After sending the previous post, I was having a last look when I saw the other pictures of the swords , the first ones, on top of the thread, where the brass device is better seen.
I think the last symbol is a bird, and I would go for the golden pheasant, representing literary refinement. The golden pheasant is also corresponding to a grade in the chinese Qing army, before the Republic.
One more thing I was thinking : If the brass device is from the Chinese Republic time, it could have been added on a older sword, dating from the 19th cent.
Yuanzhumin

yuanzhumin · 9th October 2007, 03:02 AM

Sorry, it's me once more, just to correct a little mistake. I wrote in the previous post "Qing army", but it should be read as " Qing administration ".
Yunazhumin

DaveA · 9th October 2007, 05:06 AM

yuanzhumin,

Your comments have been very helpful.

The silver pheasant is one of the symbols used in Mandarin squares (textile emblem on "official" dress) to denote an administrator of the 5th rank.

An idea: perhaps instead of the pheasant we have a phoenix (fenghuang), the yin equivalent of the dragon. Symbolizing peace and joy, it was commonly used as the mark of an empress in imperial China. (China's Cultural Heritage: The Qing Dynasty, 1644-1912 By Richard J. Smith)

I have not been able to find a Qing-era symbol for a pheasant or phoenix that resembles the one on this device.

However, I have found two pictures, one from aQing dynasty artifact and another from an antique which strongly resemble two symbols on the brass device; the bat and the deer.

This bat is detail from a Qing formal court robe:

This deer is from an antique jade pendant, possibly from China. (The identical figure also appears in a court robe but I neglected to copy that picture and now I'm having trouble finding the link.)

I think the bat and either the pheasant or phoenix reinforce the notion that this weapon played some role in the formal court or Qing administration.

Just some late night thoughts. I'm no expert, but I can Google with the best of 'em!

Regards,

Dave A.

1st October 2007, 06:11 AM	#1
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	Help Identify - Chinese execution sword? Hello, I recently acquired this sword in a lot, without identification other than perhaps it is Chinese and was used for execution. Seems short for that purpose, but it is very heavy and sharp. The blade is 21 inches long, 27 inches overall. Sharp on the convex side. A small "medallion" is affixed to the blade as shown in the pictures. Any opinions? Small photos below (larger ones available). Thanks in advance for your help. - David

3rd October 2007, 05:27 AM	#5
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	Thank you! Thank you both for your insights and a bit of history lesson! That is exactly why I jumped into this hobby. Greatly appreciated. - David

6th October 2007, 11:02 PM	#9
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	larger picture of brass device Here is a larger picture of the brass device on the sword (800 x 600). The device is identical on both sides of the blade. Is this blade a variant of a Quan Dao (Kwan Dao, Guan Dao) polearm? Is this possibly a plum blossom shape? I'm told there is such a thing as a "plum blossom sword". If one takes the center of the device to be "ground" and rotates the sword, then I can identify in three areas: leaves, a bird, and a deer. The other two are mysteries. My son says one looks like a city (mountains?) and the other a hat or helmet. Ideas? - Dave Last edited by DaveA; 6th October 2007 at 11:07 PM. Reason: add detail

9th October 2007, 02:31 AM	#11
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Typical chinese symbols I'm not at home to check on my books, but I'm sure of the following. This brass device is in the shape of a plum blossom that is the symbol for courage and hope (the plum flower is blossoming in winter, despite the cold). The plum blossom is also a more recent symbol for the Republic of China, because of the courage and hope it means but also because of the parallel done between the five leaves of the flower and the five branches of the Republican government. Following the wishes of Sun Yat-sen, the chinese republic founder and father of the chinese nation (considered as such in Taiwan AND in China), there are 5 powers -"Yuan" : legislative, executive, judiciary, examination and control. Klas has already identified the bat, symbol of luck. Just on top of it, I see the deer, meaning longevity and prosperity, but when used for a soldier or an aministrative officer, it means glory. Then we have the peach, classic symbol of longevity. I can't identify the one on the right, right now. But the last one, just before the bat or on the right of it, is the symbol for the gold ingot. In other word, money and fortune. Typical chinese symbols. At least, we are sure this is a chinese sword, with some ritual or formal use, because of the symbols on it. May be, dating from the first years of the Republic of China, at the time of the warlords. May be before, if the plum blossom symbol has no link with the Republic. Yuanzhumin

9th October 2007, 05:06 AM	#14
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	Thank you for your thoughtful posts yuanzhumin, Your comments have been very helpful. The silver pheasant is one of the symbols used in Mandarin squares (textile emblem on "official" dress) to denote an administrator of the 5th rank. An idea: perhaps instead of the pheasant we have a phoenix (fenghuang), the yin equivalent of the dragon. Symbolizing peace and joy, it was commonly used as the mark of an empress in imperial China. (China's Cultural Heritage: The Qing Dynasty, 1644-1912 By Richard J. Smith) I have not been able to find a Qing-era symbol for a pheasant or phoenix that resembles the one on this device. However, I have found two pictures, one from aQing dynasty artifact and another from an antique which strongly resemble two symbols on the brass device; the bat and the deer. This bat is detail from a Qing formal court robe: This deer is from an antique jade pendant, possibly from China. (The identical figure also appears in a court robe but I neglected to copy that picture and now I'm having trouble finding the link.) I think the bat and either the pheasant or phoenix reinforce the notion that this weapon played some role in the formal court or Qing administration. Just some late night thoughts. I'm no expert, but I can Google with the best of 'em! Regards, Dave A.

3rd October 2007, 03:04 AM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Dave, What you have is Chinese and appears to be a glaive or polearm blade that has been remounted like a sword. Hard to say if it was used specifically for executions. More likely it was put together at the turn of the 19th and 20th century for sale as an exotic trinket.

3rd October 2007, 05:13 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,938	As Rsword suggests, this is an item probably put together during the Boxer Rebellion period, as forces of various legations there sought souveniers and exotica to recall this great adventure. Chinese martial artists used most dramatic looking weapons and theatrics to impress the foreign powers present as well as to intimidate and appear menacing. Sometimes gruesome executions did take place using such exaggerated weapons, but there was no prescribed weapon form for such events as far as I am aware. In the Burton book, it seems in research some time ago I discovered that a number of the illustrations and referenced captions were actually in error, the whorled sword that Burton captioned as 'Chinese sabre knife' was actually a Dahomean hwi if I recall. In the list of sources in Burton's book he lists the reference "Illustrated History of Arms and Armour" by Auguste Demmin, London, 1877. With this he grumbles that "...the Oriental notices are deficient, and the translator has made them worse". Unfortunately, by using the 'Chinese sabre knife reference' from the Demmin book, he perpetuated the error.

3rd October 2007, 03:03 PM	#6
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	David It is quite an enjoyable hobby and when that collecting bug hits you, watch out!

3rd October 2007, 03:52 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,938	You bet Dave!! and wisely said Rsword!! Its a fantastic hobby, and exciting to hold and study actual pieces of history. The key if you are going to collect....learn as much as you can on the weapons you will be collecting. We can all attest to the trickery and deceit that plagues honest collectors and dealers, and the lessons usually arent cheap. All the best, Jim

6th October 2007, 10:18 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,938	In looking at this interesting item more, the riveted on brass device is very unusual. I really dont recall such things riveted to the blade in this fashion. Also, what symbolism might be present? If I am not mistaken, the floral design may be five petaled lotus? In the depicted items I can make out what seems to be a bat? but not sure on the others. Sometimes more review on such symbolic application might reveal more on the period and possibly group, region and intended use of the item. Although many such weapons are written off as tourist fare, many may have been actually ceremonial items for the secret organizations that often existed in China and for that matter elsewhere as the Chinese dispersed for work. Can any of those whose field includes Chinese items say more on this device and the symbols?

8th October 2007, 11:40 PM	#10
Klas Larsson Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 23	The lower left animal is a bat, as suggsted above, and used as symbol of luck, because it has the sound "fu" just as the word for luck. It's often used on weapons, often on straight swords. The ones you mention could maybe be associated with the Eight Immortals, popular taoist deities, you can google on that. I think at least the deer makes sense in that context, maybe the leaves and the bird to, not sure, check up. But the ear shaped thingy... a symbol of Mickey Mouse?

9th October 2007, 02:57 AM	#12
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	After sending the previous post, I was having a last look when I saw the other pictures of the swords , the first ones, on top of the thread, where the brass device is better seen. I think the last symbol is a bird, and I would go for the golden pheasant, representing literary refinement. The golden pheasant is also corresponding to a grade in the chinese Qing army, before the Republic. One more thing I was thinking : If the brass device is from the Chinese Republic time, it could have been added on a older sword, dating from the 19th cent. Yuanzhumin

9th October 2007, 03:02 AM	#13
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Sorry, it's me once more, just to correct a little mistake. I wrote in the previous post "Qing army", but it should be read as " Qing administration ". Yunazhumin