Ukrainian cossacks sabre

[Yustas]

Can someone specify, what kind of sabres were commonly used by cossacks in Ukraine during 16-18 centuries? Is there any specific construction, or design elements, that can identify Ukrainian sabre? I have few pictures from internet, but they all pretty different. There was shamshir style swrds, turkish ottoman, yataghan, and some polish variations.

[Ian]

Hi Yustas:

It takes a little while for the authentication process with new members to be completed, especially on a holiday like Thanksgiving. Sorry for the delay in getting your new thread posted. I'm sure you will find plenty of folks willing to discuss Ukrainian arms here.

Regards,

Ian.

[Yustas]

It's O.K.
Hope a'll get few intresting answers.

[ariel]

The only specific source I know is a small booklet by Anton Wlodzimirski "History of cold steel in the Ukraine", Donetsk 1996.
According to him, there was never a specific Ukrainian style: cossacks used " ... Polish, Hungarian, Turkish and Caucasian sabers. Later, Russian sabers of 18-19th centuries became widespread , such as the light cavalry pattern 1809"
Wojciech Zablocki, in his book " Ciecia prawdziwa szabla" , Warszawa 1989, discusses Polish sabers Type III and labels one of them (shown below, the Right-most one) as " Kozacka". This is also unlikely to be specific, however, in view of the irregular nature of the Cossack troops.
In the famous picture by Repin " Zaporozhians write a letter to Turkish Sultan" one can see a variety of sabers, especially Kilij and shamshir-type.
http://www.allartclassic.com/subj_pi...EI001&forder=1
Even taking into account the late 19th century date of the picture and the usual "artistic license" with the props, this likely reflects the reality.

[wolviex]

I'm sorry I couldn't join this thread when it was on top, but I was terribly busy and had no time to make this entry.

Actually there is one outstanding source for Cossacks edged weapons, which is the battlefield of Beresteczko [Berestechko] (on Ukraine) and other nearest villages like Plaszowa [Plashova] and Ostrow [Ostrov] where Cossacks lose battle against Polish forces in July 1651. The battle, named after Beresteczko village, was a part of Polish-Cossacks war during Chmielnicki uprising. Polish forces with King Jan Casimir as a commander clashed with Cossacks army supported by Tartars and Turkish soldiers. This battle was a series of many different fights and episodes, including escaping of Tartars with Chan who took Chmielnicki with him as a hostage. The clue of the battle was a panic of Cossacks soldiers after the bad rumors, which caused their flee from the fortified camp across the river and swamps (near Ostrow), followed with sudden attack of Polish army. Many Cossacks get drowned in swamps, or died during the upcoming carnage.

From the 70's of the 20th century, Mr. Igor Svieschnikov started archaeological examination of the battlefield. The result was outstanding, because many items, bodies and other objects remained in swamp turf if quite good condition through 300 years. Excavation made possible the reconstruction of Cossacks attires and weapons from the period. There was excavated around 6000 items which belonged to Cossacks, rebellious peasants and craftsmen. The bodies found in the swamp laid on 40-60 cm under the surface, often one on another, many with sabres and bullets wounds.

For example, Mr’s Svieschnikov team has found over 200 shoes in relatively good condition! Many items let us reconstruct how Cossacks looked like. Cossack had attached to the belt wooden spoon in leather etui, often decorated, a knife, also in leather scabbard, powder-horn, slings for a sabre, small hook to attach sabre higher during march or when mounting a horse, and some leather bags with tools, money, flints etc.

Of course many of the excavated items are also weapons: sabres, war-hammers, guns etc. In the swamp and on the battlefield, there was found only 32 sabres (including 11 broken) and 1 sword (inf. from 1992 year)! Most sabres (14 objects) are of Hungarian-Polish type, still very popular in Poland during 1st half of the 17th century. There are also ordynkas (3), sabres with half-open handle with ‘L-shaped’ knuckle-guard (5) and many loose pieces of sabres and scabbards. There are also two pallashes.
Every sabre was descripted by Svieschnikov in his article “Bitwa pod Beresteczkiem 1651 r. w swietle zrodel historycznych i archeologicznych” [Battle of Bereteczko in 1651 in light of historical and archaeological sources] for ‘Muzealnictwo Wojskowe’, tome 5, 1992. Pictures below are from this article. Every sabre is given with measurements and history of excavation.
Enjoy.

[ariel]

As usual, the final answer! Many thanks, Michal!
The assembly of the Ukrainian Cossack's weapons is not surprising: after all, they were an integral part of the Polish society and military tradition. Their close contacts (as allies or enemies) with Tatars and Turks also affected their choice and composition of weapons.
Michal, are you aware of any particular system of an unarmed combat in the Ukraine/Poland, similar to what was shown in the movie here?

[Rivkin]

Wow, wow and wow. Thank you very much for all these pictures.

[Yustas]

Great information, thank you.
Wow!
There is big variety of sabers. And i see pretty much all of them have the(what is it called) False edge? Sharp egde on the other part of the blade.

[Yustas]

And i suspect, some of the sabres was taken from Polish soldiers as trophy in previous battles.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Yustas

Great information, thank you.
Wow!
There is big variety of sabers. And i see pretty much all of them have the(what is it called) False edge? Sharp egde on the other part of the blade.

These are called Yelmans.

[Yustas]

O.K. Yelman'-it is, probably same word like in russian Єлмань.
That is when the the blade is larger and heavier at the end -to add greater power to the cut. Is it same for simple sabre (as in your post #4 picture #3) that have other side sharpened, but without changing shape of the blade? (Good for cutting both ways, and for thrusting)
Thank you for extending my vocabulary

[wolviex]

You're welcome, credits to mr. Svieschnikov and his team. Unfortunatelly he died few years ago, if I remember well. There is museum, probably in Rowne on Ukraine, where excavated objects are presented.

Originally Posted by ariel

Michal, are you aware of any particular system of an unarmed combat in the Ukraine/Poland, similar to what was shown in the movie here?

Sorry Ariel, but I'm not quite sure what you mean What movie? and what you mean "unarmed" - fist fighting?

Regards!

[ariel]

Originally Posted by wolviex

You're welcome, credits to mr. Svieschnikov and his team. Unfortunatelly he died few years ago, if I remember well. There is museum, probably in Rowne on Ukraine, where excavated objects are presented.



Sorry Ariel, but I'm not quite sure what you mean What movie? and what you mean "unarmed" - fist fighting?

Regards!

Sorry.
The one in Yustas' post that we discussed. Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuP2svZx-7Q

And, yes: unarmed as in "bare hands and feet"

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Yustas

O.K. Yelman'-it is, probably same word like in russian Єлмань.
That is when the the blade is larger and heavier at the end -to add greater power to the cut. Is it same for simple sabre (as in your post #4 picture #3) that have other side sharpened, but without changing shape of the blade? (Good for cutting both ways, and for thrusting)
Thank you for extending my vocabulary

Sure.
Interestingly, many Russian terms related to swords come from Turkish: Yelman, Klych etc. Even the word Mech ( sword, mostly straight sword) is suspiciously similar to the Turkich Mec ( pronounced Mech or Mej) that indicates straight Estoc.
And that doesn't even begin to count other terms, related to the armour... I wonder whether these words came from Turkey proper or reflect the common Mongolian influence on both countries and cultures.

[wolviex]

Thank you for the link. I didn't follow this thread, now I read it all, and don't want to move this hot discussion here. For me, who practiced few martial arts styles , moves, poses and other movements shown on the film are very legible as adopt from far eastern styles. Looks strange to me in connection with Ukrainian national attire. This, what we can see on the film, was a Cossack dance, which could be an excersize but I can't imagine cossacks fighting with high kicks against Polish army or anyone. Even today high kicks are a suicide in real fight!

There was no Polish style or anything for unarmed way of fighting - except simple boxing, kicking or anything else what normal man can do to defend himself. I suppose some of the men knew ways of fighting like wrestling, there is one "style" known from 15/16th century: link

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by ariel

Sure.
Interestingly, many Russian terms related to swords come from Turkish: Yelman, Klych etc. Even the word Mech ( sword, mostly straight sword) is suspiciously similar to the Turkich Mec ( pronounced Mech or Mej) that indicates straight Estoc.
And that doesn't even begin to count other terms, related to the armour... I wonder whether these words came from Turkey proper or reflect the common Mongolian influence on both countries and cultures.

actualy many of these words are common in all the slavic languages,,, and have been so for a long time,
these words have been used well before the turkmen nomads introduced thier language to anatolia,

i think they have a common origin wel back in history, russia and many of the other lands under the control of the mongols have plenty of mongolian words in their languages, arabic, persian,,, chinese and many others,,

but these weponry terms in russin seem to have been in use before the mongol invasion,
i would say these terms were introduced to the slavic language folk before their migration to eastern europe,
most of these terms describe items of weponry that were used by nomadic folk, and mostlikely these items were not used by the seditary slavs,, ..
hence the loan words, .