New member with a sword for review

[Angus1783]

Hello to all,

I have lurked here for a while and decided to post this shamshir for review.
In hopes maybe that someone here could decipher what is written on the blade, I know that it wont be a prize winner !! however it at least to me is interesting to look at , the Leather of the scabbard is in rather poor condition and is cracked with age and not being stored properly, this may have however helped to preserve the blade. thank you in advance for taking the time to have a look at it, Kris..

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Angus1783

Hello to all,

I have lurked here for a while and decided to post this shamshir for review.
In hopes maybe that someone here could decipher what is written on the blade, I know that it wont be a prize winner !! however it at least to me is interesting to look at , the Leather of the scabbard is in rather poor condition and is cracked with age and not being stored properly, this may have however helped to preserve the blade. thank you in advance for taking the time to have a look at it, Kris..

Is this not an Ottoman Shamshir? My first impression and in considering what happened to the weapon~ has it been in a fire? The Hilt looks part roasted The scabbard may have fire damage but appears to be sharkskin? The fuirniture is blackened (fire damage?)... The blade is saying Wootz but I cannot be sure as it looks rough. The hilt which could be Rhino has nails hammered into it and has deep scratch damage in places..The cross guard looks like it got hit with a dremmel wire brush....

The script looks like Allah with the addition underneath of the Talismanic "Bismullah wa Rehman wa Rahim"..The second smaller Cartouch is the Islamic date 1209. If you believe the date it indicates ABOUT 215 years old...(1253 = 1850 for quick referencing)

See http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/a...1-details.aspx for another Ottoman Shamshir.

Regards and welcome to the Forum...Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Kubur]

The scabbard is a pure and original Persian scabbard (leather and mounts)
I have some doubts for the sword, the general style is Ottoman/Turkish.
But something is wrong with the inscriptions & the grip (regular horn)...

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Kubur

The scabbard is a pure and original Persian scabbard (leather and mounts)
I have some doubts for the sword, the general style is Ottoman/Turkish.
But something is wrong with the inscriptions & the grip (regular horn)...

Hello Kubur,

The shape and style of the blade is of a Persian Shamshir, including the poorly immitated "Assad Allah" cartouche.

However, the blade doesn't appear to be wootz but pattern welded, and in my oppinion definitely not in Turkish or even ancient Indian style. It appears to be very poor quality pattern welded damascus.

So I suspect that it is a new sword deliberately abused to make it look old and antique. In other words a fake. A very poor quality fake...

But I generally am rather paranoid about fakes.

[Angus1783]

Thank you all for taking the time and for posting your thoughts
Here are a few more photos

[Angus1783]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Is this not an Ottoman Shamshir? My first impression and in considering what happened to the weapon~ has it been in a fire? The Hilt looks part roasted The scabbard may have fire damage but appears to be sharkskin? The fuirniture is blackened (fire damage?)... The blade is saying Wootz but I cannot be sure as it looks rough. The hilt which could be Rhino has nails hammered into it and has deep scratch damage in places..The cross guard looks like it got hit with a dremmel wire brush....

The script looks like Allah with the addition underneath of the Talismanic "Bismullah wa Rehman wa Rahim"..The second smaller Cartouch is the Islamic date 1209. If you believe the date it indicates ABOUT 215 years old...(1253 = 1850 for quick referencing)

See http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/a...1-details.aspx for another Ottoman Shamshir.

Regards and welcome to the Forum...Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

That date would make sense the other sword it came with was one of those Qajar period Kilij with the script covering both sides of the blade and the serpent as well and also the cross guard has the dragon head quillions. I believe it s known as a "Revival " type sword / at any rate I am glad to have something to post. The sword you linked to is stunning and obviously of much better pettigree.. I do know that these swords were in an old collection ( by American standards) and havent seen the light of day for a while.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Kris,
I am so glad to see someone who is among the many guests we have visiting and reading our pages come in to join us!! Welcome!

Every item that is shared here gives us all the opportunity to learn from actual examples and share experience and ideas, so sometimes the outcomes can not be as we always wish. However, it is the learning that is the true value.

There is indeed an ever burgeoning paranoia concerning fraudulently produced 'antiquities', and it is certainly well placed in many cases. In studying ethnographic items, it is often important to remember that many regions had a dynamic spectrum of would be artisans, who ranged from skilled in degree to lower groups. These lower strata might have been in remote areas, and often used actual components acquired in trade from damaged weapons, and tried to imitate genuine examples they had seen.

In my opinion, most items fashioned deliberately for tourists or as souveniers are typically created with every effort to appear authentic.
In cases where items might have a shabbily crafted aura, and clearly apparent damage left intact, these suggest to me an item which may well have been put together to provide a crude, but worthy weapon for a native person to serve as his traditional arm.

Consider that many tribal peoples are not necessarily literate or well informed, and they would be much more forgiving in acceptance of these infirmities in a weapon, certainly being happy to have a weapon with at least the character of others they had seen .

I would be inclined to think this may have been a weapon somewhat reworked in the remote Bedouin spheres in Arabia, which of course cover vast areas. However, it is well known that the weapons used by these versatile groups span a remarkable spectrum of quality. The Persian trade blades with the Assad Allah cartouche were certainly well known (I have seen numbers of them from Bedouin provenance), and would of course been favored to copy . The possible fire damage seems likely to have been of quite genuine circumstances, as trying to age a weapon artificially would not have been a priority in a situation to render a weapon serviceable in these cases.

Please pardon the dissertation, but I wanted to offer a different perspective as an option from the notion of the many 'less than authentic' weapons out there.

Thank you again for sharing it with us, and again welcome. We hope you are on the way to many new adventures in collecting these arms, and to seeing them here!

All the best
Jim

[Angus1783]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Kris,
I am so glad to see someone who is among the many guests we have visiting and reading our pages come in to join us!! Welcome!

Every item that is shared here gives us all the opportunity to learn from actual examples and share experience and ideas, so sometimes the outcomes can not be as we always wish. However, it is the learning that is the true value.

There is indeed an ever burgeoning paranoia concerning fraudulently produced 'antiquities', and it is certainly well placed in many cases. In studying ethnographic items, it is often important to remember that many regions had a dynamic spectrum of would be artisans, who ranged from skilled in degree to lower groups. These lower strata might have been in remote areas, and often used actual components acquired in trade from damaged weapons, and tried to imitate genuine examples they had seen.

In my opinion, most items fashioned deliberately for tourists or as souveniers are typically created with every effort to appear authentic.
In cases where items might have a shabbily crafted aura, and clearly apparent damage left intact, these suggest to me an item which may well have been put together to provide a crude, but worthy weapon for a native person to serve as his traditional arm.

Consider that many tribal peoples are not necessarily literate or well informed, and they would be much more forgiving in acceptance of these infirmities in a weapon, certainly being happy to have a weapon with at least the character of others they had seen .

I would be inclined to think this may have been a weapon somewhat reworked in the remote Bedouin spheres in Arabia, which of course cover vast areas. However, it is well known that the weapons used by these versatile groups span a remarkable spectrum of quality. The Persian trade blades with the Assad Allah cartouche were certainly well known (I have seen numbers of them from Bedouin provenance), and would of course been favored to copy . The possible fire damage seems likely to have been of quite genuine circumstances, as trying to age a weapon artificially would not have been a priority in a situation to render a weapon serviceable in these cases.

Please pardon the dissertation, but I wanted to offer a different perspective as an option from the notion of the many 'less than authentic' weapons out there.

Thank you again for sharing it with us, and again welcome. We hope you are on the way to many new adventures in collecting these arms, and to seeing them here!

All the best
Jim

Thank you Jim and I look forward to posting other items that may be of interest.

[mariusgmioc]

Is the sword sharp?!

[Angus1783]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Is the sword sharp?!

Yes it is very sharp however the tip is a little round and not as pointy as some I have seen displayed here.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Is the sword sharp?!

Good point!!!

[ariel]

The date is 1253 ( or, as I read it, 1259): 1837 or 1843.
It is a somewhat confusing creature: the handle is Turkish, the suspension rings and, likely, the entire scabbard , - Persian, the blade is a village-level craftsmanship. Dog's breakfast, IMHO.

Ain't no modern fake, but not an Imperial Treasure either. Local militia-type weapon, but almost certainly old and real. A legitimate part of collection.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by Angus1783

Here are a few more photos

Hi Angus,

in my honest opinion, the blade is no modern fake, it is at least from the period of around WW I.
I can see some pitting, which is not too easy to fake. The quality of the forging work seems pretty good, I cannot see any flaws, like open layers or so.

The pattern welded blade is also not a roughly forged blade. If the blade would be polished up to a grit of 2000 oder better 3000 and etched with high detail etchant, you probably will see much more and much finer details than now.

But the siganture, which was translated with "Assad Allah" is not real. Assad Allah was the most famous wootz blacksmith and this definitely no wootz.


Roland

[A.alnakkas]

The signature says "tawakaltu ala Allah" (I rely upon God)

So its not trying to be something that it is not. The blade looks legit with a crude handle and using an old scabbard. Not uncommon to find Ottoman swords with such scabbards.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Hi Angus,

in my honest opinion, the blade is no modern fake, it is at least from the period of around WW I.
I can see some pitting, which is not too easy to fake. The quality of the forging work seems pretty good, I cannot see any flaws, like open layers or so.

The pattern welded blade is also not a roughly forged blade. If the blade would be polished up to a grit of 2000 oder better 3000 and etched with high detail etchant, you probably will see much more and much finer details than now.

But the siganture, which was translated with "Assad Allah" is not real. Assad Allah was the most famous wootz blacksmith and this definitely no wootz.


Roland

I think bringing up the blade then waxing the scabbard would be reasonable..There may be parts of this weapon which are joined or mixed ...That can happen but cleaned up this could revive the weapon. Make the best of it and lets see what it looks like after some restoration...Take your time and don't overdo it ... Good luck.