Very old Turkish (?) sabre for ID

[TVV]

Gentlemen,
I am looking for some help to ID a sword that belongs to a friend of mine. It was dug up in Northern Bulgaria near the city of Nicopolis. It would be tempting to link this find to the famous battle of Nicopolis in 1396 between the Ottomans and the forces of the last large scale Crusade of the Middle Ages.
The tang is at an angle, which is indicative of earlier blades as opposed to say an 18th century pala. The blade is however dofferent from Cuman and Golden Horde swords, which tend to be a lot more slender and do not have such a well pronounced yelman, thus my guess that it is Ottoman from the 14-15th centuries.
Measurements: the wholse sword with the tang is 87 cm, just the blade is only 78 cm long and 4 cm wide.
Can anyone help to narrow down the date and origin of this sabre?
Many thanks,
Teodor

[Matchlock]

Hi Teodor,

The general shape suggests a date of 15th/16th c. It seems to be of a type commonly associated with Hungary but was actually popular all over the neighboring countries, including Austria. First first predecessors seem to appear as early as the beginning of the Middle Ages, ca. 6th c. A mid- to late 16th-c. either sur- or revival document are the Autrian Dusäggen (tessacks).

As it shows various yellow areas, which are evoked by salt deposits and will keep destroying the piece, I suggest bathing it in aqua destillata and change the water every two days to finally de desalinate for two or three weeks. After employing a silver chloride test: when no bubbles arise anymore, the object is stable and can be either conservated in a watery tannin solution or in microcrystalline wax.

Best, and thanks for sharing,
Michael

[TVV]

Thank you Michael,

Great advice about stabilizing the piece, and I think my friend has already done the destilled water treatment. I also remember the tannin water solution recipe you gave in an earlier thread - very helpful.

I agree that the sabre may be later - 15/16th century, and could be Hungarian, though I do not think these sabres are a direct descendant of the Magyar sabres of the 9th and 10th centuries. The form is quite different - the blade is much wider, and I believe this type was adopted in Central Europe as a result of contact and conflict with the Ottomans, much like the lobster helmets of the period. That type of blade one can also see on karabellas of even later vintage (17-18th centuries), but the angled tang makes me think this is an earlier blade. Do you have any examples of Hungarian or Austrian sabres with the hilt at an angle to the blade, either in museums or in contemporary pictorial art?

Thank you,
Teodor

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Teodor,

The general shape suggests a date of 15th/16th c. It seems to be of a type commonly associated with Hungary but was actually popular all over the neighboring countries, including Austria. First first predecessors seem to appear as early as the beginning of the Middle Ages, ca. 6th c. A mid- to late 16th-c. either sur- or revival document are the Autrian Dusäggen (tessacks).

As it shows various yellow areas, which are evoked by salt deposits and will keep destroying the piece, I suggest bathing it in aqua destillata and change the water every two days to finally de desalinate for two or three weeks. After employing a silver chloride test: when no bubbles arise anymore, the piced is stable and can be either conservated in a watery tannin solution or in microcrystalline wax.

Best, and thanks for sharing,
Michael

Hi Michael,

How does it work with the silver chloride test, can you please explain this process?

thanks+regards

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper,

I'm not a chemist so please see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_chloride

All I know from some 30 years of practice is the effect described.

Could you please consult your archive and help Teodor with his query?

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Jasper,

I'm not a chemist so please see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_chloride

All I know from some 30 years of practice is the effect described.

Could you please consult your archive and help Teodor with his query?

Best,
Michael

Michael, Thank you!

the Sabre is of Mongolian or Hungarian origin and can be dated somewhere between 1350 and 1450, maybe even a little older, because this hilt type w/o a true pommel and 4 pointed cross dates from 10thC onwards, after 1450 it changed into the more familiar saber with curved quillons and square pommel.

best,

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper,

Don't you think the short and staight quillons of our saber in discussion might indicate an even earlier date or maybe a later one of the 17th c?

Best,
Michael

[TVV]

Michael & Jasper,

Thank you very much! The sabre Jasper posted is a very nice one and I can see the angled hilt - I can certainly see how this is the form that these sabres evolved into after being adopted in Central Europe. The blade in terms of length and curvature is also a very close match.

I can agree that given Hungarian activity just south of the Danube in the period between 1350 and 1450 can certainly account for a Hungarian blade. Apart from the Hungarian led Nicopolis Crusade, there were of course the Crusades of the Polish-Lithuanian King Vladislav III, during which Hungary was part of the Commonwealth and in which the famous Ian Hunyadi participated with his Hungarian troops. What I wonder though is if the sabre was already in use in Hungary at that time. I doubt that use of the sabre in Hungary survived from the 9th century to the 14th century and this is why I asked if it is found depicted in period images or if there are any examples with clear provenance and dating.

I was going to discard a Tatar attribution based on the fact that early Golden Horde swords look very different, but I found the attached sword in Gutwski's catalogues on Tatar Arms. Based on what I can understand from the description in Polish, it is a sword in early 17th century mounts with an earlier, 15th century wootz blade of Syrian manufacture. Similar measurements to the sabre that is the subject of the thread: blade is 81.4 cm long and 3.8 cm wide, but it is more curved.

In Astvatsaturian's book on Turkish arms is pictured a sword that belonged to Knyaz Feodor Mustislavich. It is obviously excellently preserved and a very ornate example, but the blade and crossguard shapes are similar to the relic that started this thread. The measurements are as follows: 86.4 cm long blade, 5.8 cm wide (obviously an imposing weapon). Mustislavich dies in 1540, which would place the blade to the early 16th, late 15th centuries.

I am not necessarily pushing for a Turkish origin, and would be happy with a Hungarian (or other) attribution as long as I can see enough evidence to support this for the benefit of my friend and future readers of this thread.

Once again, many thanks for the quick and excellent responses.

Teodor

[Jeff D]

Looks 15th century Mamluk to me?

Jeff

[cornelistromp]

some early hungarian hilts.
pic 1 and 2 is Xth century.
pic 3 and 4 is xIIIth Century.

best,