albanian jambiya

Valjhun · 14th December 2005, 09:48 PM

Hi to everyone!

I'm a new member and that is my first post here. I'm from Zagreb, Croatia. I've found that forum recently and look what a great community! Compliments! I'm also a novice collector.

I was bidding on that the previous day on ebay. Item number 6586228816 . I think that it is an albanian jambiya... Is that true?

Lew · 14th December 2005, 10:08 PM

Hi Valjhun

Welcome to the forum!

Were you the one who won the auction on this dagger? I had put in a few bids on it but for some reason the hilt didn't look that old? The blade is wootz but I think the hilt was replaced more recently it just does not have the right patina on it. Still it is a nice piece with a wonderful blade.

Lew

ariel · 14th December 2005, 11:06 PM

I do not think it is Wootz (crystalline damascus); it is mechanical damascus and, I think, of Shams variety.
The finial looks Ottoman, and the use of niello points more towards Asia Minor proper rather than the Balkans. I just got Yu. Miller's book on Caucasian Arms in the Hermitage collection; it has an example of a dagger with a handle traditionally attributed to Albania (deep diagonal cuts on the handle) but in fact of Georgian origin. This one is not Caucasian at all: wire-stitched scabbard, different niello ornaments, different location of hanging rings (look almost Syrian or Moroccan to me!) , wrong finial.
I vote for the Levant origin (Turkey, Western Middle East).

TVV · 15th December 2005, 12:41 AM

Ariel's post brings up a great question: sometimes wootz (pulad) and very fine mechanical damascus are difficult to differentiate, as they look similar. I think Risk had a khyber knife that was controversial in this aspect, and I have a qama blade that I initially thought was wootz but now I believe is simply fine mechanical damascus (sorry for the enormour picture and its poor quality, the problem if partially in the camera and partially in the photographer

)

Is there any way to tell the difference without a complex analysis causing harm to the blade?

RSWORD · 15th December 2005, 01:13 AM

In the first piece posted, the blade is wootz. Sham is a pattern style of wootz. The carving in the middle of the handle reminds me of "Marsh Arab" Jambiya although the handle form is not quite the same. I would vote for Iraqi/Kurdish origin for this piece. The picture is not too good in the Qama to be able to tell for sure but it does look more like pattern welding versus wootz. I don't think there is a definitive way to tell other than through experience in viewing various watered steels and gaining an understanding of what to look for to recognize each. Two decent books on the subject are Sasche's "Damascus Steel" where he has lots of good images and technical descriptions on the different types of "watered" steel. The other book is "On Damascus Steel" by Figiel. Less technical but lots of great images of wootz and pattern welded blades.

ariel · 15th December 2005, 03:53 AM

RSWORD, I am surprised by your assertion that Shams is a pattern of wootz.
Wootz is a crystalline Damascus, a natural one, whereas Shams is a pattern of mechanical Damascus and is formed by repeat folding, twisting etc. of different steel/iron pieces.
Am I wrong?
What do other Forumites think?

Jeff D · 15th December 2005, 05:42 AM

Hi All,

To my knowledge sham is a pattern in the steel that is not from mechanical folding. Whether it is a true wootz I am not sure? In Verhoeven's paper The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel Blades . Sword 8 which most closely resembles sham, was eliminated from his study because it was hypoeutectoid. So by definition cannot be a true wootz. The pattern appeared superficial. Any thoughts Dr. Ann?

All the Best
Jeff

P.S. for what it is worth, the first looks like a very nice Indian wootz pattern (18th century), and the second although hard to say could be a late Persian piece of wootz.

Below is an example of sham pattern

Yannis · 15th December 2005, 10:48 AM

Fascinating thread! After all these years of discussing ethnographic blades we come back to the core. What is wootz and what is not. I am not an expert on the subject but my humble opinions are:
The first knife is not Albanian. But is not the common Kurdish also. I am not sure were it comes from. It has some Syrian look to me. Its blade is wootz but not sham pattern.
Sham pattern is shown clearly in Jeff’s example. Till now I was sure that sham was wootz. Middle eastern bladesmiths produced that pattern by forging wootz steel. Now I am not sure anymore, after your words. I wish someone clarify the subject.

Valjhun · 19th January 2006, 07:17 PM

I'm not so knowledeable so I cannot clarify the wootz-subject any further, but I've finally recived the dagger and it is a big mystery to me. The blade is gorgeus and it definetly looks like ottoman damascus to me. The handle look also old and I do not think that it is a later adition. The damascening on the scabbard looks nice, doing a little research on the net I've found a true albanian jambiya with similar damascening. In the Tirri's book there is a photo of a verry similar (almost identical jambiya) on the page 97, with the atribution that it is a Syrian Jambiya from 19th century. But if I'm honest, I do not believe to Mr. Tirri anymore, due to his fatal errors in the same book (Suremene knife = unusual balkan dagger, Laz bichagi = egyptian knopesh, and many more...) Any further comments?

Battara · 20th January 2006, 02:42 AM

I have a crystalline damascus wootz kard blade and a non-crystalline wootz Kurdish jambiya. This is wootz and not crystalline, though I would vote Iraqi, maybe marsh Arab.

Oriental-Arms · 23rd January 2006, 02:58 PM

I could not expect a better timing for this thread to come up. Just to count the names mentioned here: Wootz, Pulad, Sham, crystalline, mechanical and I can add Johar and watered steel and probably few other names just to demonstrate the confusion and how little we know about it.

Good time will be devoted to discuss the Wootz issue in the forthcoming meeting in Timonium, March 18 2006. We will be privileged and honored to have both Ann Feuerbach and Ric Furrer talk to us and put some order in the subject.

Full program to be announced soon. We look forward to see you all there.

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd January 2006, 04:25 PM

Here you can read about wootz, ukku or whatever it is called. You should also have a look at the bibliography. http://www.infinityfoundation.com/ma...graw_wootz.htm

14th December 2005, 09:48 PM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	albanian jambiya Hi to everyone! I'm a new member and that is my first post here. I'm from Zagreb, Croatia. I've found that forum recently and look what a great community! Compliments! I'm also a novice collector. I was bidding on that the previous day on ebay. Item number 6586228816 . I think that it is an albanian jambiya... Is that true?

15th December 2005, 05:42 AM	#7
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi All, To my knowledge sham is a pattern in the steel that is not from mechanical folding. Whether it is a true wootz I am not sure? In Verhoeven's paper The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel Blades . Sword 8 which most closely resembles sham, was eliminated from his study because it was hypoeutectoid. So by definition cannot be a true wootz. The pattern appeared superficial. Any thoughts Dr. Ann? All the Best Jeff P.S. for what it is worth, the first looks like a very nice Indian wootz pattern (18th century), and the second although hard to say could be a late Persian piece of wootz. Below is an example of sham pattern Attached Images

23rd January 2006, 02:58 PM	#11
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Wootz, Pulad, Johar and all the rest I could not expect a better timing for this thread to come up. Just to count the names mentioned here: *Wootz, Pulad, Sham, crystalline, mechanical* and I can add Johar and watered steel and probably few other names just to demonstrate the confusion and how little we know about it. Good time will be devoted to discuss the Wootz issue in the forthcoming meeting in Timonium, March 18 2006. We will be privileged and honored to have both Ann Feuerbach and Ric Furrer talk to us and put some order in the subject. Full program to be announced soon. We look forward to see you all there.

14th December 2005, 10:08 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Valjhun Welcome to the forum! Were you the one who won the auction on this dagger? I had put in a few bids on it but for some reason the hilt didn't look that old? The blade is wootz but I think the hilt was replaced more recently it just does not have the right patina on it. Still it is a nice piece with a wonderful blade. Lew

14th December 2005, 11:06 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I do not think it is Wootz (crystalline damascus); it is mechanical damascus and, I think, of Shams variety. The finial looks Ottoman, and the use of niello points more towards Asia Minor proper rather than the Balkans. I just got Yu. Miller's book on Caucasian Arms in the Hermitage collection; it has an example of a dagger with a handle traditionally attributed to Albania (deep diagonal cuts on the handle) but in fact of Georgian origin. This one is not Caucasian at all: wire-stitched scabbard, different niello ornaments, different location of hanging rings (look almost Syrian or Moroccan to me!) , wrong finial. I vote for the Levant origin (Turkey, Western Middle East).

15th December 2005, 12:41 AM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	Ariel's post brings up a great question: sometimes wootz (pulad) and very fine mechanical damascus are difficult to differentiate, as they look similar. I think Risk had a khyber knife that was controversial in this aspect, and I have a qama blade that I initially thought was wootz but now I believe is simply fine mechanical damascus (sorry for the enormour picture and its poor quality, the problem if partially in the camera and partially in the photographer ) Is there any way to tell the difference without a complex analysis causing harm to the blade?

15th December 2005, 01:13 AM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	In the first piece posted, the blade is wootz. Sham is a pattern style of wootz. The carving in the middle of the handle reminds me of "Marsh Arab" Jambiya although the handle form is not quite the same. I would vote for Iraqi/Kurdish origin for this piece. The picture is not too good in the Qama to be able to tell for sure but it does look more like pattern welding versus wootz. I don't think there is a definitive way to tell other than through experience in viewing various watered steels and gaining an understanding of what to look for to recognize each. Two decent books on the subject are Sasche's "Damascus Steel" where he has lots of good images and technical descriptions on the different types of "watered" steel. The other book is "On Damascus Steel" by Figiel. Less technical but lots of great images of wootz and pattern welded blades.

15th December 2005, 03:53 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	RSWORD, I am surprised by your assertion that Shams is a pattern of wootz. Wootz is a crystalline Damascus, a natural one, whereas Shams is a pattern of mechanical Damascus and is formed by repeat folding, twisting etc. of different steel/iron pieces. Am I wrong? What do other Forumites think?

15th December 2005, 10:48 AM	#8
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Fascinating thread! After all these years of discussing ethnographic blades we come back to the core. What is wootz and what is not. I am not an expert on the subject but my humble opinions are: The first knife is not Albanian. But is not the common Kurdish also. I am not sure were it comes from. It has some Syrian look to me. Its blade is wootz but not sham pattern. Sham pattern is shown clearly in Jeff’s example. Till now I was sure that sham was wootz. Middle eastern bladesmiths produced that pattern by forging wootz steel. Now I am not sure anymore, after your words. I wish someone clarify the subject.

19th January 2006, 07:17 PM	#9
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	I'm not so knowledeable so I cannot clarify the wootz-subject any further, but I've finally recived the dagger and it is a big mystery to me. The blade is gorgeus and it definetly looks like ottoman damascus to me. The handle look also old and I do not think that it is a later adition. The damascening on the scabbard looks nice, doing a little research on the net I've found a true albanian jambiya with similar damascening. In the Tirri's book there is a photo of a verry similar (almost identical jambiya) on the page 97, with the atribution that it is a Syrian Jambiya from 19th century. But if I'm honest, I do not believe to Mr. Tirri anymore, due to his fatal errors in the same book (Suremene knife = unusual balkan dagger, Laz bichagi = egyptian knopesh, and many more...) Any further comments?

20th January 2006, 02:42 AM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	I have a crystalline damascus wootz kard blade and a non-crystalline wootz Kurdish jambiya. This is wootz and not crystalline, though I would vote Iraqi, maybe marsh Arab.

23rd January 2006, 04:25 PM	#12
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Here you can read about wootz, ukku or whatever it is called. You should also have a look at the bibliography. http://www.infinityfoundation.com/ma...graw_wootz.htm