rusty Saber: ID requested from the saber experts.

ErnestoJuan · 2nd September 2006, 10:42 PM

Hi all,

Today I acquired this rusty saber. My wife and I bought some goods in a bed shop temporarily located in an Amsterdam ground floor housing with a garden. When we were having a smoke break, the sales person showed me the garden and the shed and told me that they had found all kinds of old rubbish. There it was, laying in the shed.. I picked it up. He told me that if I liked it I could have it. Mind you, we already had a deal on the goods we bought.

Now, I took some pictures of the item after removing quite a lot of dust, rust and spider leftovers.

The saber measured in a straight line is about 100 centimeters. The hilt is wood,
covered with thin rope. It is "the real thing". It is not a decorative item; the blade is "hollow" and it is still quite sharp.

The white smear on the blade is old paint..

Anybody?

S.Al-Anizi · 3rd September 2006, 12:17 AM

Sorry I cant say anything helpful, but I would like to say that thats a very nice piece.

Lew · 3rd September 2006, 06:44 AM

Looks like a French saber 1830-50. Check the spine near the hilt for any type of engraving.

Lew

ErnestoJuan · 3rd September 2006, 09:29 AM

Thanks guys.

I will do some cleaning today and will check the spine near the hilt.

katana · 3rd September 2006, 04:39 PM

Sorry cant help to ID.....but I love these situations when a neglected treasure is unearthed in an unexpected place.......

ErnestoJuan · 3rd September 2006, 05:06 PM

I absolutely agree; to get a edged weapon in a place where you least expect it: a bed shop

Compare that to the biggest antiques fare in France (the Vendee area) we visited two weeks ago; 37.000 square meters (not kidding) of antiques and not one decent koummya to be found..

S.Al-Anizi · 3rd September 2006, 05:51 PM

Can I take a stab at it and say it might be a french LC 1822?? (my favourite saber)

Jim McDougall · 3rd September 2006, 08:32 PM

Hello ErnestoJuan,
Very nicely done! You have 'saved' a piece of history, and I agree with the others, it is indeed gratifying to see a once proudly worn sabre brought out of dusty obscurity. I have tried going through typological references of regulation patterns, but have found nothing that distinctly corresponds. Although regulation patterns, by definition, generally follow easily recognized forms, those manufactured by various contractors often produced variants, especially for auxiliary or ersatz units.

This appears to me to be most likely from mid to latter 19th century, and probably Northern European, which of course seems a given since it was found in Amsterdam. With that I checked through "Blanke Wapens" by J.P.Puype (Amsterdam, 1981) which is focused on the military swords of the Netherlands from c.1600 through the 19th century. As I have noted, nothing with enough similarity. This would not be a French military sabre of the periods discussed as these were typically brass hilted. Your example is of course iron, which appears 'japanned' (painted black to prevent rust).
Also the strap type attachment of the knuckleguard to the capped pommel seems very unusual, and recalls this form of join often seen on colonial weapons such as the Spanish Colonial espada ancha.

Although the sabre seems possibly Prussian by its overall appearance, it very well could be either Swedish, Danish or even a Dutch variant. The strap type pommel attachment seems as if it may correspond to the 'klewangs' used by Dutch navy at end of 19th c. and into WWI period. It may be possible this sabre might date into that period and been issued to cavalry of the time but more research into variants needed.

Possibly best bet at this point might be getting hold of Jean Binck or Richard Dellar over at regulation military swords (SFI) , both of whom are brilliant in identifying these regulation weapons. I just wanted to have a run at it too!!
All the best

Jim

us_milcoll · 3rd September 2006, 09:51 PM

Hello...
I suspect from the cord bound grip and what appears to be a rounded/blunted tip. This sword is probably a Korbschläger, from the mid-late 19th century.
I have always found them to be quite a nice addition in a sword collection. Congratulations...

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd September 2006, 10:39 PM

Well Jim, you are mostly right - but I doubt very much that the sword is Danish, as I have not been able to find a sword looking like that in 'Danske Blankvaaben'.

Jens

Hi Jens,
I agree, in checking Moller I didn't see anything close, and the strap over pommel is really unusual. Perhaps US has something with the blunted point, which I failed to notice, and this could well be one of those sabres.
All the best,
Jim

FourBlades · 3rd September 2006, 11:23 PM

Great find. I am sure I speak for others when I say I would like to see more pictures once you have cleaned it up more.

John

S.Al-Anizi · 4th September 2006, 12:10 AM

I think polishing the spine area towards tha hilt lightly will show this sword's identity.

ErnestoJuan · 4th September 2006, 11:44 PM

Hello people,

To update you all;

The saber (one side) is still covered in Renaissance De-corroder and has not yet showed a marking. Tomorrow I will brush of the rust residue and if it shows anything significant I will post some pictures.

All of you, thank you for your comments, this certainly is exciting !

Ernst

ErnestoJuan · 9th September 2006, 08:36 PM

HI guys,

I am still in the proces of cleaning the sabre. It is looking much better allready.
Still no sign, stamp of whatever has appeared..

Tomorrow I will continue the elbow grease intensive labour, it is definitely worth it: luctor et emergo

Hopefully people on another forum, the German www.blankwaffen-forum.de can identify it, we will see.

Ernst

2nd September 2006, 10:42 PM	#1
ErnestoJuan Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Europa Posts: 60	rusty Saber: ID requested from the saber experts. Hi all, Today I acquired this rusty saber. My wife and I bought some goods in a bed shop temporarily located in an Amsterdam ground floor housing with a garden. When we were having a smoke break, the sales person showed me the garden and the shed and told me that they had found all kinds of old rubbish. There it was, laying in the shed.. I picked it up. He told me that if I liked it I could have it. Mind you, we already had a deal on the goods we bought. Now, I took some pictures of the item after removing quite a lot of dust, rust and spider leftovers. The saber measured in a straight line is about 100 centimeters. The hilt is wood, covered with thin rope. It is "the real thing". It is not a decorative item; the blade is "hollow" and it is still quite sharp. The white smear on the blade is old paint.. Anybody? Attached Images

3rd September 2006, 10:39 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Well Jim, you are mostly right - but I doubt very much that the sword is Danish, as I have not been able to find a sword looking like that in 'Danske Blankvaaben'. Jens Hi Jens, I agree, in checking Moller I didn't see anything close, and the strap over pommel is really unusual. Perhaps US has something with the blunted point, which I failed to notice, and this could well be one of those sabres. All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 3rd September 2006 at 10:54 PM.

9th September 2006, 08:36 PM	#14
ErnestoJuan Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Europa Posts: 60	Still cleaning :>) HI guys, I am still in the proces of cleaning the sabre. It is looking much better allready. Still no sign, stamp of whatever has appeared.. Tomorrow I will continue the elbow grease intensive labour, it is definitely worth it: luctor et emergo Hopefully people on another forum, the German www.blankwaffen-forum.de can identify it, we will see. Ernst

3rd September 2006, 12:17 AM	#2
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Sorry I cant say anything helpful, but I would like to say that thats a very nice piece.

3rd September 2006, 06:44 AM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Looks like a French saber 1830-50. Check the spine near the hilt for any type of engraving. Lew

3rd September 2006, 09:29 AM	#4
ErnestoJuan Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Europa Posts: 60	Thanks guys. I will do some cleaning today and will check the spine near the hilt.

3rd September 2006, 04:39 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Sorry cant help to ID.....but I love these situations when a neglected treasure is unearthed in an unexpected place.......

3rd September 2006, 05:06 PM	#6
ErnestoJuan Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Europa Posts: 60	I absolutely agree; to get a edged weapon in a place where you least expect it: a bed shop Compare that to the biggest antiques fare in France (the Vendee area) we visited two weeks ago; 37.000 square meters (not kidding) of antiques and not one decent koummya to be found..

3rd September 2006, 05:51 PM	#7
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Can I take a stab at it and say it might be a french LC 1822?? (my favourite saber)

3rd September 2006, 08:32 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hello ErnestoJuan, Very nicely done! You have 'saved' a piece of history, and I agree with the others, it is indeed gratifying to see a once proudly worn sabre brought out of dusty obscurity. I have tried going through typological references of regulation patterns, but have found nothing that distinctly corresponds. Although regulation patterns, by definition, generally follow easily recognized forms, those manufactured by various contractors often produced variants, especially for auxiliary or ersatz units. This appears to me to be most likely from mid to latter 19th century, and probably Northern European, which of course seems a given since it was found in Amsterdam. With that I checked through "Blanke Wapens" by J.P.Puype (Amsterdam, 1981) which is focused on the military swords of the Netherlands from c.1600 through the 19th century. As I have noted, nothing with enough similarity. This would not be a French military sabre of the periods discussed as these were typically brass hilted. Your example is of course iron, which appears 'japanned' (painted black to prevent rust). Also the strap type attachment of the knuckleguard to the capped pommel seems very unusual, and recalls this form of join often seen on colonial weapons such as the Spanish Colonial espada ancha. Although the sabre seems possibly Prussian by its overall appearance, it very well could be either Swedish, Danish or even a Dutch variant. The strap type pommel attachment seems as if it may correspond to the 'klewangs' used by Dutch navy at end of 19th c. and into WWI period. It may be possible this sabre might date into that period and been issued to cavalry of the time but more research into variants needed. Possibly best bet at this point might be getting hold of Jean Binck or Richard Dellar over at regulation military swords (SFI) , both of whom are brilliant in identifying these regulation weapons. I just wanted to have a run at it too!! All the best Jim

3rd September 2006, 09:51 PM	#9
us_milcoll Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 9	Hello... I suspect from the cord bound grip and what appears to be a rounded/blunted tip. This sword is probably a Korbschläger, from the mid-late 19th century. I have always found them to be quite a nice addition in a sword collection. Congratulations...

3rd September 2006, 11:23 PM	#11
FourBlades Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 13	Great find. I am sure I speak for others when I say I would like to see more pictures once you have cleaned it up more. John

4th September 2006, 12:10 AM	#12
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	I think polishing the spine area towards tha hilt lightly will show this sword's identity.

4th September 2006, 11:44 PM	#13
ErnestoJuan Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Europa Posts: 60	Hello people, To update you all; The saber (one side) is still covered in Renaissance De-corroder and has not yet showed a marking. Tomorrow I will brush of the rust residue and if it shows anything significant I will post some pictures. All of you, thank you for your comments, this certainly is exciting ! Ernst