maranaw kris with Tiboli scabard?

nacho · 14th July 2008, 08:34 AM

Can anyone help me on this? Is the pommel elephant molar? Why would it have tiboli cloth wrapped around the scabard? (unless of course someone did it just to make it look interesting).

VANDOO · 14th July 2008, 09:23 PM

I WOULD SAY THE POMEL IS ELEPHANT TUSK RATHER THAN TOOTH AND IS NOT FOSSIL BUT OLD AND WELL PATINATED. OLD IVORY OFTEN TAKES ON A ORANGE COLOR FROM THE OILS IN A PERSONS HANDS OVER TIME. THE SCABBARD IS IN THE PROPER SHAPE FOR A MORO (MARANAO) AND NOT SQUARED OFF LIKE THE TIBOLI OR BAGOBO SCABBARDS.
AS TO WHY THERE IS FABRIC FROM THOSE TRIBES IT COULD BE FOR MANY REASONS. 1. PERHAPS HIS FATHER OR MOTHER CAME FROM ANOTHER TRIBE AND HE USED SOME OF THAT FABRIC ON HIS SWORD TO SHOW THAT.
2. PERHAPS HE TOOK THE CLOTH FROM A FALLEN ENEMY WHO FOUGHT WELL AND PUT IT ON HIS SWORD AS AN ANTING ANTING
3. PERHAPS SOMEONE PUT IT ON THE SWORD LATER TO MAKE IT MORE INTERESTING AND PERHAPS TO BRING A HIGHER PRICE.

I WOULD PERSONALLY THINK #2 OR #1 MORE LIKELY UNLESS THE FABRIC LOOKS NEWLY ATTACHED.

kai · 14th July 2008, 10:36 PM

Hello Nacho,

Interesting kris - thanks for sharing it! Could you please post dimensions like length without hilt, etc.?

The hilt is indeed ivory (possibly antique but this is hard to ascertain). The ensemble doesn't look Maranao to me though or did you mean something else?

What material is the grip wrapping made of? Despite it being quite worn it looks like a vintage replacement to me. What material was used for the asang-asang? (Aluminium would fit a WW2 period restoration.)

The blade looks Sulu to me - I assume the gangya is separate? I'd guess that the blade got refitted in Maguindanao which also would explain the scabbard.

Is the shiny pink band close to the scabbard mouth some sort of plastic fabric? Any other hints of the cloth being added later? Maguindanao would be close enough to the T'boli that one could imagine an old cloth being utilized to "upgrade" a piece for more recent selling (I've seen a few pieces like that coming out of Mindanao...). Otherwise, this kris may have found its way into T'boli ownership and possibly got personalized. Other than the cloth it seems to be pure Moro work though; I don't see any additional features which might support a T'boli association.

Regards,
Kai

sun_dang · 14th July 2008, 11:10 PM

That's not T'boli. Those are kalagan embroidery designs. Besides, T'bolis use bells. T'bolis are neighbors of Maguindanaons while Muslim Kalagans are related to Tausugs.

Battara · 14th July 2008, 11:51 PM

I would say that the blade is Maguindanao and the cloth Tboli.

Thank you for sharing. Have seen pieces come up every so often.

nacho · 15th July 2008, 04:19 AM

Hi Kai,

Thanks for the inputs. The grip is some kind of rope with copper wire in between. Asang-asang looks like aluminum. Yes, gangya is separate.

The pink plastic is not part of the scabard. It is just a piece of straw I use to hang the sword.

Edwin

Bill · 15th July 2008, 06:18 AM

Hi Nacho, According to Cato, it's a Maranao (fig 40) blade. If I were to guess on the sheath wrap, I'd say Bagobo because it's red, the stick figure & the hour glass triangles. The Bagobo also liked to cover their sheaths with both bead work and cloth. I'd peel it back a bit and see if the outside is faded/dirty compared to covered areas. The hand twisted "string" under the copper looks like abaca, often used by the Bagobo but certainly not exclusively. The "rope" also looks like cotton farmed/woven in that area.
With the maddening trade in that part of the world, you would really need a expert to know for sure.
If the sheath covering & hilt wrap show signs of wear (the pictures look like it) I would guess it was most recently used by a Bagobo. If you suspect it has been altered it ay have been done near Davao City to sell in one of the Manila shops.

nacho · 15th July 2008, 08:37 AM

Hi Bill, no, I don't think there were any recent alterations. The cloth and the rope (around the handle) look like they have been there for many many years.

Spunjer · 15th July 2008, 08:12 PM

thanks for the pics, nacho. here's another cloth covered scabbard:
pusaka perhaps?

nacho · 16th July 2008, 04:12 AM

Hi Spunjer, that's a very nice looking blade with ivory pummel. Am no expert, but that looks pretty old to me.

Battara · 16th July 2008, 05:19 AM

Yes, I think it is old and as Spunger once mentioned (on another thread or to me) the motifs on the cloth are Sulu. A very nice piece that I originally saw on Ashokaarts site.

14th July 2008, 08:34 AM	#1
nacho Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Makati Posts: 69	maranaw kris with Tiboli scabard? Can anyone help me on this? Is the pommel elephant molar? Why would it have tiboli cloth wrapped around the scabard? (unless of course someone did it just to make it look interesting). Attached Images

14th July 2008, 09:23 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I WOULD SAY THE POMEL IS ELEPHANT TUSK RATHER THAN TOOTH AND IS NOT FOSSIL BUT OLD AND WELL PATINATED. OLD IVORY OFTEN TAKES ON A ORANGE COLOR FROM THE OILS IN A PERSONS HANDS OVER TIME. THE SCABBARD IS IN THE PROPER SHAPE FOR A MORO (MARANAO) AND NOT SQUARED OFF LIKE THE TIBOLI OR BAGOBO SCABBARDS. AS TO WHY THERE IS FABRIC FROM THOSE TRIBES IT COULD BE FOR MANY REASONS. 1. PERHAPS HIS FATHER OR MOTHER CAME FROM ANOTHER TRIBE AND HE USED SOME OF THAT FABRIC ON HIS SWORD TO SHOW THAT. 2. PERHAPS HE TOOK THE CLOTH FROM A FALLEN ENEMY WHO FOUGHT WELL AND PUT IT ON HIS SWORD AS AN ANTING ANTING 3. PERHAPS SOMEONE PUT IT ON THE SWORD LATER TO MAKE IT MORE INTERESTING AND PERHAPS TO BRING A HIGHER PRICE. I WOULD PERSONALLY THINK #2 OR #1 MORE LIKELY UNLESS THE FABRIC LOOKS NEWLY ATTACHED.

14th July 2008, 10:36 PM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Nacho, Interesting kris - thanks for sharing it! Could you please post dimensions like length without hilt, etc.? The hilt is indeed ivory (possibly antique but this is hard to ascertain). The ensemble doesn't look Maranao to me though or did you mean something else? What material is the grip wrapping made of? Despite it being quite worn it looks like a vintage replacement to me. What material was used for the asang-asang? (Aluminium would fit a WW2 period restoration.) The blade looks Sulu to me - I assume the gangya is separate? I'd guess that the blade got refitted in Maguindanao which also would explain the scabbard. Is the shiny pink band close to the scabbard mouth some sort of plastic fabric? Any other hints of the cloth being added later? Maguindanao would be close enough to the T'boli that one could imagine an old cloth being utilized to "upgrade" a piece for more recent selling (I've seen a few pieces like that coming out of Mindanao...). Otherwise, this kris may have found its way into T'boli ownership and possibly got personalized. Other than the cloth it seems to be pure Moro work though; I don't see any additional features which might support a T'boli association. Regards, Kai

14th July 2008, 11:10 PM	#4
sun_dang Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2	That's not T'boli. Those are kalagan embroidery designs. Besides, T'bolis use bells. T'bolis are neighbors of Maguindanaons while Muslim Kalagans are related to Tausugs.

14th July 2008, 11:51 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	I would say that the blade is Maguindanao and the cloth Tboli. Thank you for sharing. Have seen pieces come up every so often.

15th July 2008, 04:19 AM	#6
nacho Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Makati Posts: 69	Hi Kai, Thanks for the inputs. The grip is some kind of rope with copper wire in between. Asang-asang looks like aluminum. Yes, gangya is separate. The pink plastic is not part of the scabard. It is just a piece of straw I use to hang the sword. Edwin

15th July 2008, 06:18 AM	#7
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Hi Nacho, According to Cato, it's a Maranao (fig 40) blade. If I were to guess on the sheath wrap, I'd say Bagobo because it's red, the stick figure & the hour glass triangles. The Bagobo also liked to cover their sheaths with both bead work and cloth. I'd peel it back a bit and see if the outside is faded/dirty compared to covered areas. The hand twisted "string" under the copper looks like abaca, often used by the Bagobo but certainly not exclusively. The "rope" also looks like cotton farmed/woven in that area. With the maddening trade in that part of the world, you would really need a expert to know for sure. If the sheath covering & hilt wrap show signs of wear (the pictures look like it) I would guess it was most recently used by a Bagobo. If you suspect it has been altered it ay have been done near Davao City to sell in one of the Manila shops.

15th July 2008, 08:37 AM	#8
nacho Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Makati Posts: 69	Hi Bill, no, I don't think there were any recent alterations. The cloth and the rope (around the handle) look like they have been there for many many years.

15th July 2008, 08:12 PM	#9
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thanks for the pics, nacho. here's another cloth covered scabbard: pusaka perhaps?

16th July 2008, 04:12 AM	#10
nacho Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Makati Posts: 69	Hi Spunjer, that's a very nice looking blade with ivory pummel. Am no expert, but that looks pretty old to me.

16th July 2008, 05:19 AM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	Yes, I think it is old and as Spunger once mentioned (on another thread or to me) the motifs on the cloth are Sulu. A very nice piece that I originally saw on Ashokaarts site.