Eunjangdo

[JoeCanada42]

Recently acquired this locally at a garage sale. some of the contents of the sale were from a person from Japan who has passed, I also got a carved document seal, which could be of interest., The box it came with has no info. it looked like a trinket from a tourist shop at first, I had a suspicion of silver, and when I saw the blade I knew it was something of quality, . I work as a silversmith making jewelry in 925.. I took it upon myself to clean it carefully with a good silver dip, I know I really probably shouldn't have, i didn't research it yet and didn't have much concern into it. it does shine nicer in the moonlight now,. I did take pictures before cleaning, and fixed up an old camera for some better photos afterwards.

anybody know a little more about these? I'm curious about the dohong? or niello? anybody able to translate? that would be realy cool also. thanks for looking.

here is the previous info i found. and there is a few videos on youtube concerning eunjangdo, korean silver knives etc..



http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21795

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15166

[JoeCanada42]

more photos

[JoeCanada42]

additional photos again

[JoeCanada42]

total length in scabbard is almost 6 1/2 inches
blade and handle is 5 1/2 inches
blade only is just over 3 inches
blade is 1/2 inch wide

[ariel]

I think this is a quite modern souvenir.
Not even considering its very modern mechanical decorations, the gift box with even a special knife holder is a dead giveaway.

[JoeCanada42]

on first glance my thoughts were the same, and evidently also by the person who sold it to me so cheaply at the sale.
although I wonder, and got this feeling
it is silver, the blade is carbon steel of obvious quality, it is in very good shape, just a touch of rust, no damage , the photos may make it look nicked..
even a souvenir can be of quality and of value, and if modern.
it is still made by a jeweler and a blade smith (master). I saw in a video it takes 177 steps and is tempered 7 times.
anyways, i see the box yes it made me think trinket, but the box has no labels or markings,, the box does seem like it could be narrower, i have several of those boxes of various shapes an sizes, if i wanted without much artistic skill i could add holders, so the box could be later to the peice,, or original and old or modern, either way, i have also seen these silver ones packed in paper boxes. the member who posted two of them earlier, i think evidently made a type O when he said stainless steel, i see you mention that would make it modern, but its clear its not stainless steel he even went on to say he had a wood box calling it a silver knife.
as for the construction i don't see what it is that is modern your refering too.?
the niello is an old technique, the dragons and signature are carved, the dragons are unique not all of the same pattern. the detail is very nice, although when tarnished in my photos and in the other members photos the art does look cartoony. i would say if modern they followed traditional old methods.

[Bob A]

The carving on the silver looks fresh. There's no wear on the edges from carrying. It looks like it was either made recently, or boxed right after being finished and never used or carried.

Given that it seems to have had no use, and that these have not been in regular use since at least WWII era, I'd guess that it is of recent construction, well made in traditional form, but not an artifact of the actual period of use.

It's attractive, and apparently not terribly costly to obtain. It is representative of a tradition, but probably not an actual part of it. As such, it has a place in a collection, within the parameters described. Can it be called a "tourist" item? I don't know, and I admit that such a designation seems faintly pejorative. It does seem to be of some quality, which would elevate it.

I can't judge the quality of the silver, and I'm sufficiently ignorant to say whether it falls within the range typical of such objects, but that might be of interest to those whose knowledge of the subject exceeds my own. (That would be a large group indeed.)

Not very helpful, alas.

[ariel]

Joe,
All four of us , yourself and seller included, think that the likelihood of this dagger being a modern creation is very real and pretty high ( IMHO it is 100%).

Does it mean that it is not a legitimate collectible item? Absolutely not. Faithful copy may be simply attractive to a particular collector and buying it is a purely personal decision. Emotions play an important and often decisive role in all of our life choices. We can disagree on the authenticity and age of our stabbers and slashers, but judging the motives of acquiring them is just as fruitless as judging a choice of another person’s spouse. It is easy to contradict all of your arguments in favor of this dagger’s authenticity and age, but this will miss the only salient point: you were simply attracted to it.

I am completely indifferent to even sumptious Indonesian krises no matter how important they might be, but am ready to buy rusty and dirt-simple Indo-Persian swords because of some intriguing ( for me!) minor features that will certainy raise a multitude of eyebrows:-)

You liked it and bought it for a song: enjoy it. It is YOUR collection and only YOU can decide what tickles YOUR fancy.

[JoeCanada42]

well said,
I like something with a mystery that I get to research and learn from, and above all I like something that I think is such a good price, that's what gets into my collection.
yes I do more likely think it is more modern, but how much modern if so does interest me, 90's, 70' 50' 1910??
I think that based on the niello and the blade markings I may be able to find out who made it or where, that would definitely be cool.
I don't want to rule out the 1% chance it is a well preserved older piece
I have higher hopes more for a quality piece at this point then an antique. built for the original purpose,(even if it didn't end up with the original intended owner). if made by a qualified native smith for the sake of keeping up a dying tradition, made the old way,, then its still a real weapon to me. if made identical or even by the same guild or master would be possibly preferable than the same producers older used one .
this feels similar to the story with the kaskara I bought, still very happy with it because its true, even if not antique., yet..
if someone could help with translation if even possible that is, then this would be a great start.

[JoeCanada42]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqJ2iwnm-U8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_Ry_uRIn7o

just found that second link verrrryy inetersing some1 help please?

[JoeCanada42]

translated the description, think it mentions the master died in 2004

[ariel]

Originally Posted by JoeCanada42

translated the description, think it mentions the master died in 2004

I think it ends the uncertainty: circa 1970-90 at the earliest. If the seller knew when the original owner lived in Japan, it would be helpful.

BTW, niello cannot serve as a dating instrument, just as the presence of brass cannot serve for the same purpose on Afghani weapons. Niello was used in Europe for centuries, and contemporary Caucasian jewellers are using it till now for the mass-produces silver elements of kindjal handles and scabbards. You can find tons of them on e-bay.
Moreover, it is not niello as your references show application of blackening to the silver elements in Korea. They put the “ substance” on some kind of adhesive tape and attach it to the object. Upon tape removal the parts of silver in contact with the substance become black. Real niello is a mix of sulphur, lead, silver and copper. The paste is applied and then fired. Modern chemistry simplified the process.

A very pretty knife you got. Enjoy it!

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by JoeCanada42

the niello is an old technique, the dragons and signature are carved, the dragons are unique not all of the same pattern. the detail is very nice, although when tarnished in my photos and in the other members photos the art does look cartoony. i would say if modern they followed traditional old methods.

I got a little acquainted with what is written in the Korean segment of the Internet about Eunjangdo knives. This turned out to be interesting. The South Korean government supports artists and craftsmen who preserve national traditions. At least one of Eunjangdo makers holds the very prestigious title of Living National Treasure. I think that your knife is made according to a tradition of craftsmanship that is over a hundred years old, and possibly much longer. I consider this a very good purchase.
As I was able to find out, many of the Korean researchers do not consider knives as weapons. The name Eunjando 은장도 (classic Chinese 銀粧刀) itself is translated as "silver jewelry knife". The popular legend that Korean ladies used Eunjangdo to commit suicide in case of a threat to their honor, according to researchers, appeared during the Japanese colonization and represented the Japanese view of this subject (which to the Japanese seemed to be an analogue of the kwaiken). For the Korean aristocracy and gentry, Eunjangdo was only a symbol of loyalty and devotion to Confucian ideals. The Chinese characters 一片心, which even today are often engraved on blades (an important part of the tradition because after the Second World War Korea officially abandoned the use of Chinese characters) mean "One heart / indivisible heart/unchanging heart" and indicate the dogmatic statements "A woman has there are no two husbands", "An official does not serve two sovereigns". Your angular, dragon-engraved knife is a traditional "official's knife" design. Today, you don't have to be a government employee to get an Eunjangdo like that. For example, it could be given to a retired employee of a corporation.

[JoeCanada42]

very cool , thanks for all your effort and help in posting your research RenRen, thanks for a few things as well I haven't heard yet, such as this being a silver officials knife.
I would bet it must be possible to find out exactly who made this knife, given a few of its distinct markings and carvings, the 4 dragon carvings are even signed with a single initial.

I found this video on YouTube that has English subtitles and was also very interesting.
for anyone interested

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtbLRmxvfrQ

Ariel thank also, and I am aware about the niello, in actuality i beleive the Korean version is called "dohong" i read it can identify poison, or if the wearer is sick, i also read it was alloy made with gold? i mentioned the dohong in the beginning but have been referring to it as niello, because i figured it was more understandable then the obscure name dohong

[Ren Ren]

The problem is that "dohong" doesn't have a meaning in Korean. I had to strain to find out that "dohong" is a transcription of the Chinese term 烏銅 "wutong", which means "crow's copper" or "black copper". According to the Chinese treatise, it is an alloy consisting of 100 parts of copper and 1 part of gold. Thus, the Korean dohong, the Chinese wutong and the Japanese shakudo are the same copper alloy in composition. But there are differences in processing technique. For example, in Korea, the black color of the finished product is obtained by etching in urine (aged for a long time in a closed vessel).
It is also very interesting that the information that objects made of this alloy can signal the state of health of their owner finds some experimental confirmation.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

The problem is that "dohong" doesn't have a meaning in Korean. I had to strain to find out that "dohong" is a transcription of the Chinese term 烏銅 "wutong", which means "crow's copper" or "black copper". According to the Chinese treatise, it is an alloy consisting of 100 parts of copper and 1 part of gold. Thus, the Korean dohong, the Chinese wutong and the Japanese shakudo are the same copper alloy in composition. But there are differences in processing technique. For example, in Korea, the black color of the finished product is obtained by etching in urine (aged for a long time in a closed vessel).
It is also very interesting that the information that objects made of this alloy can signal the state of health of their owner finds some experimental confirmation.

Thank you for the interesting linguistic and technical information. A couple of comments:

The black color of the wutong / shakudo alloy is induced by a chemical process commonly called "pickling", the reaction causes a color change at the surface. Etching is the use of an acid to eat away (the English term "etch" is related from a Dutch word meaning "to eat") of the metal to create a pattern (contrived by the use of a resist like wax or shellac to block the corrosive effect in certain areas), or to dull a glossy surface, or to bring out the texture of the object by reacting with different constituent alloys (for instance, in revealing the structure of a damascus blade).

Regarding the alloy's use as a diagnostic tool -- somewhere in the past I read an article (can't remember where or when published) whose author stated that silver chopsticks were the norm at royal banquets because tarnishing during use could signal the presence of poison in the food.

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by Philip

Thank you for the interesting linguistic and technical information. A couple of comments:

The black color of the wutong / shakudo alloy is induced by a chemical process commonly called "pickling", the reaction causes a color change at the surface. Etching is the use of an acid to eat away (the English term "etch" is related from a Dutch word meaning "to eat") of the metal to create a pattern (contrived by the use of a resist like wax or shellac to block the corrosive effect in certain areas), or to dull a glossy surface, or to bring out the texture of the object by reacting with different constituent alloys (for instance, in revealing the structure of a damascus blade).

Thank you Philip! These are the subtleties of another language that you have to learn all your life. I have already added the term "picking" to my personal English-Russian glossary. It is curious that in Russian there is a very rare term "пикель" - "pikel", which comes from the English "pickle" and means the acid-salt solution used to treat hides before tanning.

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by Philip

Regarding the alloy's use as a diagnostic tool -- somewhere in the past I read an article (can't remember where or when published) whose author stated that silver chopsticks were the norm at royal banquets because tarnishing during use could signal the presence of poison in the food.

After my post was published, I spoke with my friend from Germany and he said that the substance in urine that acts on the surface of copper alloys is ammonia. Its percentage and, if I may say so, "purity" are individual for each person, so the resulting color shades can vary quite a lot.

I also learned that silver reacts quickly with arsenic. Probably arsenic was the most common poison in antiquity. Therefore, the use of silver chopsticks in Korea as indicators of the presence of poison may have reasonable grounds.

[DaveA]

Thank you Ren Ren for the information. Some very good leads to follow. I recently started a new thread not having seen all the information in this one.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...74832#poststop

My Eunjando:

[JoeCanada42]

very cool knife, I found many videos about eunjangdos on youtube, they were fun to watch, i linked some already