What is a "Ganja mbatok mengkureb"?

jagabuwana · 19th January 2021, 12:26 AM

I've seen some listings online which describe the ganja as being "mbatok mengkureb". I've not seen these words to describe a ganja before.

What are the characteristics of a ganja mbatok mengkureb?

A. G. Maisey · 19th January 2021, 03:04 AM

Never heard that expression applied to a keris, but it means a half round shape, ie hemispherical, like a coconut shell cut in half and the cut side put to the ground.(mbathok mengkureb)

Just guessing, maybe they mean that the top of the gonjo is sort of half round or curved, or if applied only to the sirah cecak, that the sirah cecak is half round.

jagabuwana · 19th January 2021, 03:49 AM

Thank you, Alan.

I looked with a bit more detail to the other kerises in the listing. There are no photos taken at an angle where I could determine the shape of the sirah cecak. Although with the amount of listings that has this ganja in its description, I have a feeling that the term does not refer to the sirah cecak or the top of the gonjo being slightly curved. Though I'll have to pay closer attention to be sure.

However there are other other blades where the ganja is not described as mbatok mengkureb. One has a ganja iras, and the other has been described as having ganja nungkak. I think this refers to the fact that the ganja has a distinct and accentuated upward slant between the greneng and ron dha nunut, as opposed to a more-or-less straight line. I don't know Javanese but if there's any relation between "nungkak" and the Sundanese "nanjak", which means a climb or an incline, then the word might support my observation.

Based on this and by deduction, it might be that "mbatok mengkureb" in this case just means a ganja that is of a "standard" kind, meaning a ganja that is a separate piece and is more-or-less joined to the base of the blade in a straight line, without reference to the sirah cecak, buntut or greneng.

A. G. Maisey · 19th January 2021, 04:43 AM

I've just had a look at EK, and it appears to refer to the side profile of the gonjo, where the top of the gonjo is curved, not flat.

As I said, I've never heard the term used for keris, but then, there are a lot of things in EK that are strange to me.

No idea at all what a "gonjo nungkak" is, but a "tungkakan" on a keris is the little curve down at the joint of wadidang and gonjo; "tungkak" is "heel"; "nungkak" means to follow somebody very closely, ie "on their heels".

There is a whole lexicon of keris terms that have surfaced in the last 20 or so years that I never heard used in the 1980's & 1990's. Some might have been revived from obscure old printed matter, some might have been invented. If one wishes to appear to be learned it is always a good idea to use words that nobody else knows, thus causing confusion and generating the need to ask the user exactly what he means, thereby elevating his status.

To me, this sort of thing is a part of the name game, and does not really have a whole lot to do with understanding the keris. Probably a nice thing for collectors to play with, but not really of so much use.

jagabuwana · 20th January 2021, 02:26 AM

Yeah I see your point. I can certainly think of some other fields where invented terminology doesn't help anyone to get closer to understanding the subject at hand. Corporatese, anyone?

Jean · 20th January 2021, 09:25 AM

This name is used by some sellers from Yogya (the missed Suryono for instance) but is not mentioned in the book "Keris Jawa".
It seems quite similar to the type of ganja "sebit ron tal" (see page 162 of the book "Keris Jawa").

A. G. Maisey · 20th January 2021, 10:31 AM

Yes Jean, sebit ron tal is the terminology that I'm familiar with, and in my opinion the more conventional term.

19th January 2021, 12:26 AM	#1
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 280	What is a "Ganja mbatok mengkureb"? I've seen some listings online which describe the ganja as being "mbatok mengkureb". I've not seen these words to describe a ganja before. What are the characteristics of a ganja mbatok mengkureb?

19th January 2021, 04:43 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	I've just had a look at EK, and it appears to refer to the side profile of the gonjo, where the top of the gonjo is curved, not flat. As I said, I've never heard the term used for keris, but then, there are a lot of things in EK that are strange to me. No idea at all what a "gonjo nungkak" is, but a "tungkakan" on a keris is the little curve down at the joint of wadidang and gonjo; "tungkak" is "heel"; "nungkak" means to follow somebody very closely, ie "on their heels". There is a whole lexicon of keris terms that have surfaced in the last 20 or so years that I never heard used in the 1980's & 1990's. Some might have been revived from obscure old printed matter, some might have been invented. If one wishes to appear to be learned it is always a good idea to use words that nobody else knows, thus causing confusion and generating the need to ask the user exactly what he means, thereby elevating his status. To me, this sort of thing is a part of the name game, and does not really have a whole lot to do with understanding the keris. Probably a nice thing for collectors to play with, but not really of so much use. Attached Images Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 19th January 2021 at 04:59 AM.

19th January 2021, 03:04 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	Never heard that expression applied to a keris, but it means a half round shape, ie hemispherical, like a coconut shell cut in half and the cut side put to the ground.(mbathok mengkureb) Just guessing, maybe they mean that the top of the gonjo is sort of half round or curved, or if applied only to the sirah cecak, that the sirah cecak is half round.

19th January 2021, 03:49 AM	#3
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 280	Thank you, Alan. I looked with a bit more detail to the other kerises in the listing. There are no photos taken at an angle where I could determine the shape of the sirah cecak. Although with the amount of listings that has this ganja in its description, I have a feeling that the term does not refer to the sirah cecak or the top of the gonjo being slightly curved. Though I'll have to pay closer attention to be sure. However there are other other blades where the ganja is not described as mbatok mengkureb. One has a ganja iras, and the other has been described as having ganja nungkak. I think this refers to the fact that the ganja has a distinct and accentuated upward slant between the greneng and ron dha nunut, as opposed to a more-or-less straight line. I don't know Javanese but if there's any relation between "nungkak" and the Sundanese "nanjak", which means a climb or an incline, then the word might support my observation. Based on this and by deduction, it might be that "mbatok mengkureb" in this case just means a ganja that is of a "standard" kind, meaning a ganja that is a separate piece and is more-or-less joined to the base of the blade in a straight line, without reference to the sirah cecak, buntut or greneng.

20th January 2021, 02:26 AM	#5
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 280	Yeah I see your point. I can certainly think of some other fields where invented terminology doesn't help anyone to get closer to understanding the subject at hand. Corporatese, anyone?

20th January 2021, 09:25 AM	#6
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	This name is used by some sellers from Yogya (the missed Suryono for instance) but is not mentioned in the book "Keris Jawa". It seems quite similar to the type of ganja "sebit ron tal" (see page 162 of the book "Keris Jawa").

20th January 2021, 10:31 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	Yes Jean, sebit ron tal is the terminology that I'm familiar with, and in my opinion the more conventional term.