Fake Persian axe??

Kubur · 2nd June 2014, 10:12 PM

Hello,

Do you think this Persian / Qajar axe is a fake?
How to reconize a good piece??
Thanks

Regards
K

RSWORD · 3rd June 2014, 04:29 AM

How do you define fake? Modern made but in the style of Persian Qajar period axes? If that is your definition of fake, then no, this is not a fake. It is a late Qajar period axe. How do you recognize a good piece? Depends on what your definition of a good piece. What do you look for in a good piece? This could be considered a good piece for a number of collectors and this could be considered a fairly average piece for a number of other collectors. I think you have to determine what you are looking for yourself. Do you want a functional, battle worthy piece? Then this is not it. Do you want a piece that is probably of wootz steel? Then this is not it. Do you want a piece that has fine chiseling? Then this is not it. Looks to be an etched pattern. Do you want a piece that is legitimately Persian and of the Qajar period that would be used in theatre or ceremonies? Then this is a perfectly good example.

Oliver Pinchot · 3rd June 2014, 04:48 AM

Couldn't agree more, Rick.
I would add only that, like most of this type, it is assembled in three pieces. Somewhere along the line, the head was inverted.

Cthulhu · 3rd June 2014, 07:24 AM

I've seen these with the "tail" of solid metal, of hollow box construction like this, and also as simply a flat piece of metal of a vaguely similar shape. Do those represent further abstractions of each other, and are they from specific time periods?

Kubur · 3rd June 2014, 11:25 AM

Thank you very much both!!

My question is related to some extensions between the pole and the blade.
In most of the Persian axes that I have seen there is no such little intermediary pieces (in red).

I'm right or wrong??

Oliver Pinchot · 4th June 2014, 01:39 AM

Cthulhu's observation is a good one. By the latter Qajar Dynasty, more complex construction, and by extension, imagery, usually preceded simpler work. This was driven largely by expense: if a dragon's head which was cut out of sheet looked indistinguishable from one more carefully wrought when viewed in profile, a shift in production could take place quickly. Kubur's question as to the construction of the head and the appearance of the blocks indicate workmanship of a higher grade; this is supported by the complex construction of the pean as well.

Nasr alDin Shah Qajar singlehandedly revived the arms-making industry in Iran during the second half of the 19th century. The products wrought by smiths in this period are often of excellent quality. They represented a brilliant if brief rebirth of the armorer's craft before its ultimate demise.

ariel · 7th June 2014, 02:24 PM

Currently it cannot be called a fake, because after 100 years anything becomes antique:-)

But it is certainly not a fighting example and never was. Any fighting axe has a wedge-like profile. This one is flat.

Decorative would be a better word.

CharlesS · 7th June 2014, 05:10 PM

I thought you might enjoy this period pic of a Persian "Fakir" with a very similar Qajar era axe of ceremonial type. In the pic it's a little hard to tell, but I believe the axe is looped over his shoulder in some manner and that he is holding a cane just below it. It almost seems as if the axe has been mounted on a wooden haft...but I can't see any point in that, so it may take a more careful look at the pic, thus my inclination towards his holding a cane.

He also seems to have a medallion of some sort looped around the axe.

Kubur · 7th June 2014, 07:42 PM

Thanks all

Your photo is very interesting.

My question is:

We always say ceremonial, but these axes were used by Fakir and sufi in India and Persia,
then it was the same with the dervishes in Sudan.
All these people are connected by faith and by their axes...

I enclose one double headed axe that I guess is from the 19th.
and connected to what I said.
Any ideas, comments or more photos??

machinist · 8th June 2014, 03:43 AM

Not much to add but a lovely picture of two Jewish dervishes supposedly from Iran and taken in the nineteen twenties.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th June 2014, 06:17 PM

See~

1. http://touba.tumblr.com/post/1021697...arvish-and-his

2. http://shahrefarang.com/en/qajar-dervishes/

for more examples.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Kubur · 8th June 2014, 06:46 PM

The second link is amazing!
Elf choukran

I wanted to say that 'ceremonial' means used by people (sufi or fakir)
not for battle, but it's still cool
I think that an object used is still a valuable object
if we follow the definition of an ethnographic collection
it's the same with African masks.

Regards
Kubur

2nd June 2014, 10:12 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Fake Persian axe?? Hello, Do you think this Persian / Qajar axe is a fake? How to reconize a good piece?? Thanks Regards K Attached Images

3rd June 2014, 11:25 AM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Thank you very much both!! My question is related to some extensions between the pole and the blade. In most of the Persian axes that I have seen there is no such little intermediary pieces (in red). I'm right or wrong?? Attached Images

7th June 2014, 05:10 PM	#8
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	I thought you might enjoy this period pic of a Persian "Fakir" with a very similar Qajar era axe of ceremonial type. In the pic it's a little hard to tell, but I believe the axe is looped over his shoulder in some manner and that he is holding a cane just below it. It almost seems as if the axe has been mounted on a wooden haft...but I can't see any point in that, so it may take a more careful look at the pic, thus my inclination towards his holding a cane. He also seems to have a medallion of some sort looped around the axe. Attached Images

7th June 2014, 07:42 PM	#9
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Persian double head axe Thanks all Your photo is very interesting. My question is: We always say ceremonial, but these axes were used by Fakir and sufi in India and Persia, then it was the same with the dervishes in Sudan. All these people are connected by faith and by their axes... I enclose one double headed axe that I guess is from the 19th. and connected to what I said. Any ideas, comments or more photos?? Attached Images

8th June 2014, 03:43 AM	#10
machinist Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 93	Not much to add but a lovely picture of two Jewish dervishes supposedly from Iran and taken in the nineteen twenties. Attached Images Last edited by machinist; 8th June 2014 at 04:00 AM.

3rd June 2014, 04:29 AM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	How do you define fake? Modern made but in the style of Persian Qajar period axes? If that is your definition of fake, then no, this is not a fake. It is a late Qajar period axe. How do you recognize a good piece? Depends on what your definition of a good piece. What do you look for in a good piece? This could be considered a good piece for a number of collectors and this could be considered a fairly average piece for a number of other collectors. I think you have to determine what you are looking for yourself. Do you want a functional, battle worthy piece? Then this is not it. Do you want a piece that is probably of wootz steel? Then this is not it. Do you want a piece that has fine chiseling? Then this is not it. Looks to be an etched pattern. Do you want a piece that is legitimately Persian and of the Qajar period that would be used in theatre or ceremonies? Then this is a perfectly good example.

3rd June 2014, 04:48 AM	#3
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	Couldn't agree more, Rick. I would add only that, like most of this type, it is assembled in three pieces. Somewhere along the line, the head was inverted.

3rd June 2014, 07:24 AM	#4
Cthulhu Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Central Valley, California Posts: 46	I've seen these with the "tail" of solid metal, of hollow box construction like this, and also as simply a flat piece of metal of a vaguely similar shape. Do those represent further abstractions of each other, and are they from specific time periods?

4th June 2014, 01:39 AM	#6
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	Cthulhu's observation is a good one. By the latter Qajar Dynasty, more complex construction, and by extension, imagery, usually preceded simpler work. This was driven largely by expense: if a dragon's head which was cut out of sheet looked indistinguishable from one more carefully wrought when viewed in profile, a shift in production could take place quickly. Kubur's question as to the construction of the head and the appearance of the blocks indicate workmanship of a higher grade; this is supported by the complex construction of the pean as well. Nasr alDin Shah Qajar singlehandedly revived the arms-making industry in Iran during the second half of the 19th century. The products wrought by smiths in this period are often of excellent quality. They represented a brilliant if brief rebirth of the armorer's craft before its ultimate demise.

7th June 2014, 02:24 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Currently it cannot be called a fake, because after 100 years anything becomes antique:-) But it is certainly not a fighting example and never was. Any fighting axe has a wedge-like profile. This one is flat. Decorative would be a better word.

8th June 2014, 06:17 PM	#11
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	See~ 1. http://touba.tumblr.com/post/1021697...arvish-and-his 2. http://shahrefarang.com/en/qajar-dervishes/ for more examples. Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

8th June 2014, 06:46 PM	#12
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	valuable object for an ethnographic collection The second link is amazing! Elf choukran I wanted to say that 'ceremonial' means used by people (sufi or fakir) not for battle, but it's still cool I think that an object used is still a valuable object if we follow the definition of an ethnographic collection it's the same with African masks. Regards Kubur