Keris Panjang 5 Lok Blade

[Roland_M]

Hello,

today I show the newest member of my tiny collection, a Keris Panjang with an unusual 5 Lok Blade.

The blade length is 22,5" or 57cm, whole length with scabbard is 29,5" or 75cm.
The hilt looks like South Sulawesi type and is maybe younger than the blade. I think, the dapur with 5 Lok is unusual for a Keris Panjang. I like the twisted pamor pattern in the area with the waves. The blade is still quite sharp and I think at least solid quality forging.

The blade itself is heavily corroded and was recently etched.

I know, here are some very experienced experts with very impressive knowledge and so I would be very happy, to read some informative comments about this Keris.


Thanks in advance for any comment and best wishes,
Roland

[David]

Hi Roland. I think perhaps the entire ensemble is younger than you might think. The look of this iron gives me the impression of a late 20th century manufacture. Of course, photos are often deceiving, but this looks like the kind of metal work i have seen in late 20th Century Madura pieces. It also isn't very common to find pamor on old keris panjang.
Others may have more or varying ideas...

[Jean]

Hi Roland,
I am sorry to be in full agreement with David.... Genuine krisses panjang from Sumatra or Malaysia have straight & thick blades and no apparent pamor, while this one has a pamor in javanese Buntel Mayat style but probably made in Madura indeed. The scabbard look recent and the hilt is not in appropriate style, see a typical kris Panjang for comparison.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

I have seen, and owned, a number of old keris panjang with pamor blades, but the pamor was always a very simple basic one, never a manipulated pamor.

I'm sorry Roland, but I agree with David and Jean, this keris is post 1970, and very probably not from Malaya nor from Sumatra

[sirek]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have seen, and owned, a number of old keris panjang with pamor blades, but the pamor was always a very simple basic one, never a manipulated pamor.

I can show you my panjang with pamor I do not know his age
(maybe someone can say something about it)

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by David

Hi Roland. I think perhaps the entire ensemble is younger than you might think. ...

Hi David. The age of a Keris is not very important for me. I removed the hilt and checked the tang. My opinion is early to mid 20th century or younger and badly stored.

A Keris is more an artwork than a weapon for me and a nice pamor and shape is much more important than the age.

The surface of this blade looks shattered and is either strongly corroded or etched with a special technique. The point is lost but not broken, it looks like a frayed v-shaped cut.


Roland

[David]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Hi David. The age of a Keris is not very important for me. I removed the hilt and checked the tang. My opinion is early to mid 20th century or younger and badly stored.

A Keris is more an artwork than a weapon for me and a nice pamor and shape is much more important than the age.

The surface of this blade looks shattered and is either strongly corroded or etched with a special technique. The point is lost but not broken, it looks like a frayed v-shaped cut.

Roland, it is good to know that the age of the keris is not very important to you, however, you did ask for comments and that was one i was able to offer. Though it is still not important to you i would disagree with your own opinion on age. As Alan has pointed out, this is a rather modern creation, post 1970, most probably later than that. Certainly not a pre-WWII piece. It may have been badly stored or it may have corroded purposefully to give the impression of greater age.
If art work and a nice pamor are what is important to you than i must say that to my eye at least this keris has neither very good pamor work nor a particularly pleasing shape for the panjang form. It is a blade most likely created in Madura of a keris form from outside that particular area of keris culture. As such it presents itself to me as a attempt at a form which the smith was not very adept at or completely familiar with. You can find many of these on the market these days and my feeling is that they are created mostly for collectors who want to add the so-called "executioners keris" to their collections at more reasonable prices than actual Sumatran and Malay keris panjangs.
Please forgive me if this assessment sounds harsh. It is not intended to sway you from liking this keris, only to put it in context to what a good keris panjang actually is.

[A. G. Maisey]

Sirek, have a close look at the ron dha on your keris.

What do you notice?

[Jean]

I attach the pics of 2 supposedly javanese panjang krisses for reference, sorry for the poor quality.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, I've had more than a few Javanese keris panjang, but some of these had non-Javanese blades. I rather feel that a close examination of the two keris you have shown would also point to an origin outside Jawa for the blades.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, I've had more than a few Javanese keris panjang, but some of these had non-Javanese blades. I rather feel that a close examination of the two keris you have shown would also point to an origin outside Jawa for the blades.

Thank you Alan, this is why I wrote "supposedly" and expected such comment... The top specimen seems more likely to be non-javanese than the bottom one IMO but it is difficult to tell from the poor pictures and the condition of the blades.
Regards

[sirek]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Sirek, have a close look at the ron dha on your keris.

What do you notice?

Mr Maisey my untrained eye try to see what you mean, but I'm not sure where to look out for: not correctly cut?

[A. G. Maisey]

Actually both ron dha are correctly cut, and well cut, but the rondha in the gonjo is Surakarta pattern, and the ron dha nunut --- ie, the ron dha in the wadidang of the blade --- is Mataram pattern.

This sort of mix usually indicates that the gonjo has been made for a different keris and adapted to fit the one it is on.

[sirek]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Actually both ron dha are correctly cut, and well cut, but the rondha in the gonjo is Surakarta pattern, and the ron dha nunut --- ie, the ron dha in the wadidang of the blade --- is Mataram pattern.

This sort of mix usually indicates that the gonjo has been made for a different keris and adapted to fit the one it is on.

Thank you for pointing that out, If I had to explain the difference it seems to me that the upper part of the ron dha in the Mataram pattern bends more upwards.
Concerning the gonjo, I have always had the suspicion that this was a replacement. But for me that was not such a problem because i thought it is not uncommon with older blades.

[David]

Originally Posted by sirek

Thank you for pointing that out, If I had to explain the difference it seems to me that the upper part of the ron dha in the Mataram pattern bends more upwards.
Concerning the gonjo, I have always had the suspicion that this was a replacement. But for me that was not such a problem because i thought it is not uncommon with older blades.

I think a replacement gonjo is a very good explanation/possibility.
I do wonder is this is really a keris panjang though. It doesn't appear quite long enough in the photo, but that could be deceptive. What is the actual blade length here?

[A. G. Maisey]

It is very common for a gonjo to be replaced on an older keris, however, the usual practice is to make a new gonjo, not recycle a gonjo from a different blade.

The reasons for replacemant can range from the original gonjo being damaged to the use of an original gonjo in the manufacture of a new keris.

If we think of the gonjo as a female element, and the wilah as a male element, it should be obvious why it is not fitting to replace a gonjo with the gonjo from a different wilah. When this is done it can very probably be considered to be the work of a dealer, or some person who does not understand keris ethics.

[sirek]

Originally Posted by David

I think a replacement gonjo is a very good explanation/possibility.
I do wonder is this is really a keris panjang though. It doesn't appear quite long enough in the photo, but that could be deceptive. What is the actual blade length here?

Hello David, the length of the blade = 40cm / 15¾ inch, measured from gonjo to point.

[David]

Originally Posted by sirek

Hello David, the length of the blade = 40cm / 15¾ inch, measured from gonjo to point.

Yes, i would say that is a bit too short for a keris panjang.

[sirek]

Originally Posted by David

Yes, i would say that is a bit too short for a keris panjang.

I looked up an photo I used in an earlier thread, and according to this standard the blade is indeed too short to be called a panjang.
it is somewhere in between

[GIO]

Originally Posted by David

Yes, i would say that is a bit too short for a keris panjang.

A keris of this length should be called "Anak Alang"