Islamic Caligraphy and Numismatic - ID Help with three odd coins

Radu Transylvanicus · 17th February 2005, 09:16 PM

I should start with a short apology as every once in a while one of us is breaking away from weaponry, in order to discuss or request help with some other somehow related ethnographic topic but somehow still very exotic and chalenging and I guess now it is my turn:
As those of you who read my previous post I just returned home from a trip in my native Romania. Normally you would find me bringing back some old blades or folk or antique art but this short and other purposes oriented time I was lucky enough still to get were a few old and very atractive coins, a freebie gift from my older brother, who got them for me at a flea market in Transylvania from an old woman. Strangely enough, three of them, splendid specimens I must say, are Islamic. I would strictly snobishly pose to say I know anything sure about them but I must admit I am dying to know what they are, even with the omnipresent risk of a treasure hunter disapointment. Coin # 1 and coin # 2 seem to be perfectly the same while the # 3 is almost like a religious medal with an inscriptio resembling a ,,tughra,, on both sides.
My best guess is that they are Ottoman ( the Tugra and the caligraphy seems Turkish to me) and they seem to be between one and two hundred years old. In reality vs. photo the patina is much more proeminent (an older look) as I enhanced them a bit so it would be an easiear ,,lecture,,.
Please help translate or ID this pieces and I will be forever in your debt. Ariel, Erlikhan, Yannis, Rivkin, Kamil, TVV and other Caucaso-Balkanic aficionados, youre expected do some magic and solve the math here , what do you say ?
Note: regardless of the result or demands they are not for sale , as the only promise I had to make my brother in order to own them is that I would not gave them away !
Thank you !
My best regards and most indebted to all of you willing to help,
Radu Transylvanicus

TVV · 17th February 2005, 11:15 PM

Well radu, I have no clue about the inscriptions, but if I am not mistaken the tugra on all three coins belongs to Sultan Selim III (1789-1807), and the date on all three of them is 1203 or 1789. This is al I can help, and, oh yes, those would look great on a kindjal or khanjat hilt (you can still own them that way)

Radu Transylvanicus · 18th February 2005, 04:22 AM

Help ... help ...

rasdan · 18th February 2005, 07:38 AM

Hi Radu,

TVV is correct that it is Ottoman year 1789. The first and second is identical. All i can read is the word As-Sultan... (?) in the first row and third row of both coins. "Wa Hakkanul Bahrain" (Im not sure about this) in the second row. The fourth row reads "Islambul" and the fifth reads year 1203. The front side i can only read "Islambul" on the second line and 1203 on the third. The first is complex caligraphy.

The first line on the third coin i'm unable to determine but the second line reads As-Sultan. This link might be helpful:

http://www.rustypennies.com/catalog/turkish_coins.html

Yannis · 18th February 2005, 07:41 AM

A normal day I know almost nothing about coins, but when a friend asks I have to learn fast.

Dear son of Vlad, I think coins 1 and 2 are SILVER YUZLUK (1789-1808) . See http://www.joelscoins.com/mideast.htm

I still looking for coin 3

Radu Transylvanicus · 18th February 2005, 08:27 AM

Enigma was eluded, thank you Yannis, great job, Rasdan and TVV, you put me on right track, Turkish silver coinage from late 18th century, from the times of Sultan Selim III, Islamic years AH.1203-22, Christian years AD.1789-1807. Very interesting, even though alltogether from an investment value they are worth very little, more or less around $ USD 90:

PIECES # 1 & 2 are silver Ottoman [I]"yüzlük" [/I] or 100 piasters coins FRONT: inscription reads: Sültanül berreyni ve hakanül bahreini essultan bin essultan, 9 that translates: ,,Sultan of the two continents and Qaghan of the two seas, the Sultan, son of a Sultan, in the 9th year of reign" verso : the [I]tughra[/] (caligraphic signature of a Turkish rulling class) of Sultan Selim III and inscription: duribe fi Islambol 1203 translates as: minted in (?) Istanbul 1789 (coresponding to the Islamic year 1203) .

PIECE # 3 is an Ottoman ikilik or [B]çifte kurush[B], a silver two piasters coin valueing 100 para. Back side : the tughra of Sultan Selim III . Front side: inscription reads: duribe fi Islambol 1203, 9 and translates from Turkish as : minted in Istanbul (?) 1789, in the 9th year of reign.

Sultan Selim III was a reformer by nature, thing that brought his end when he did that to the Janissaries who turned against him and took his life after briefly imprisoning him. His reforming measures where much needed in order to establish control in a giant Empire stretching over so much geopolitical field.
He was first to consider European models as it was the great era of Napoleon and admiral Nelson which whom he fought unsucesfully during his reign. He was strangely enough born on Christmas day, 24th Dec 1761 and died in July 1808. The two picture are his portrait and on right is one of his muskets and flask , the cup is an English trophy part of owner`s collection not related.

Rather · 19th February 2005, 05:41 PM

Radu, great idea to show some Islamic coins! The attribution is right, except the date of minting. Coin 1 and 2 are minted in the second year of Selim’s reign, coin 3 in the forth year. You find the year on coin 1 and 2 in the 3rd row, left and on coin 3 on top of the front side (by the way, it is normally treated as the back side and the site with the Tughra as the front.) The Tughra reads: “Selim han bin Mustrafa elmuzafferü daima” – Selim, Lord, son of Mustafa the Ever Victorious.

If your are interested in Ottoman coins, try to get hold of some literature, I recommend:

1. General

- Artuk, I.+C. - Istanbul Arkeoloji Müzeleri Teshirdeki Islami Sikkeler Katalogu, Cilt I + II, Istanbul 1974

- Darphane Müzesi - Osmanli Madeni Paralari Katalogu, Istanbul 1985

- Fisekcioglu, G. - PARA 90, Istanbul 1990 (for the last 6 Sultans)

- Pere, Nuri - Osmanlilarda Madeni Paraler, Istanbul 1968

- Sreckovic, S. – Akches Vol. 1. Orhan Gazi – Murad II. 699-848 AH, Belgrad 1999

- Sultan, Jem - Coins of the Ottoman Empire, U.S.A. 1977

2. Specialised

- MacKenzie/Lachman - Countermarks of the Ottoman Empire, U.S.A. 1974

- Ölcer, C. - Avrupa Müzelerinde Nadir Osmanli Madeni Paralari, Istanbul 1984

- Ölcer, C. - Nakisli Osmanli Mangirlari, Istanbul 1975

- Ölcer, C. - Ottoman coinage during the reign of Sultan Abdülaziz Han, Istanbul 1979

- Ölcer, C. - Ottoman coinage during the Reign of Sultan Abdülmecid Han, Istanbul 1978

- Ölcer, C. - Ottoman coinage during the reign of Yavus Sultan Selim I., Istanbul 1989

- Ölcer, C. - Ottoman coinage during the reigns of Sultan Mehmed Resad and Sultan Mehmed Vahdeddin, Istanbul 1987

- Ölcer, C. - Sovyet Rusya Müzelerindeki Nadir Osmanli Madeni Paralari, Istanbul 1972

- Ölcer, C. - Sultan Mahmud II Zamaninda Darp Edilen Osmanli Madeni Paralari, Istanbul 1970

- Ölcer, C. - Sultan Murad V ve Sultan Abdülhamid Dönemi Osmanli Madeni Paralari, Istanbul 1986

- Ölcer, C. - Yilderim Beyazid'in Oglullarina ait Akce ve Mangirlar, Istanbul 1968

- Turkish Numismatic Society – A Festschrift presented to I. Artuk, Istanbul 1988

- Sreckovic, S. - Osmanlijski Novac Kovan Na Tlu Jugoslavije, Beograd 1987

17th February 2005, 09:16 PM	#1
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Islamic Caligraphy and Numismatic - ID Help with three odd coins I should start with a short apology as every once in a while one of us is breaking away from weaponry, in order to discuss or request help with some other somehow related ethnographic topic but somehow still very exotic and chalenging and I guess now it is my turn: As those of you who read my previous post I just returned home from a trip in my native Romania. Normally you would find me bringing back some old blades or folk or antique art but this short and other purposes oriented time I was lucky enough still to get were a few old and very atractive coins, a freebie gift from my older brother, who got them for me at a flea market in Transylvania from an old woman. Strangely enough, three of them, splendid specimens I must say, are Islamic. I would strictly snobishly pose to say I know anything sure about them but I must admit I am dying to know what they are, even with the omnipresent risk of a treasure hunter disapointment. Coin # 1 and coin # 2 seem to be perfectly the same while the # 3 is almost like a religious medal with an inscriptio resembling a ,,tughra,, on both sides. My best guess is that they are Ottoman ( the Tugra and the caligraphy seems Turkish to me) and they seem to be between one and two hundred years old. In reality vs. photo the patina is much more proeminent (an older look) as I enhanced them a bit so it would be an easiear ,,lecture,,. Please help translate or ID this pieces and I will be forever in your debt. Ariel, Erlikhan, Yannis, Rivkin, Kamil, TVV and other Caucaso-Balkanic aficionados, youre expected do some magic and solve the math here , what do you say ? Note: regardless of the result or demands they are not for sale , as the only promise I had to make my brother in order to own them is that I would not gave them away ! Thank you ! My best regards and most indebted to all of you willing to help, Radu Transylvanicus Attached Images Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 17th February 2005 at 09:35 PM.

18th February 2005, 08:27 AM	#6
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Inshallah Enigma was eluded, thank you Yannis, great job, Rasdan and TVV, you put me on right track, Turkish silver coinage from late 18th century, from the times of Sultan Selim III, Islamic years AH.1203-22, Christian years AD.1789-1807. Very interesting, even though alltogether from an investment value they are worth very little, more or less around $ USD 90: PIECES # 1 & 2 are silver Ottoman [I]"yüzlük" [/I] or 100 piasters coins FRONT: inscription reads: Sültanül berreyni ve hakanül bahreini essultan bin essultan, 9 that translates: ,,Sultan of the two continents and Qaghan of the two seas, the Sultan, son of a Sultan, in the 9th year of reign" verso : the [I]tughra[/] (caligraphic signature of a Turkish rulling class) of Sultan Selim III and inscription: *duribe fi Islambol 1203* translates as: minted in (?) Istanbul 1789 (coresponding to the Islamic year 1203) . PIECE # 3 is an Ottoman ikilik or [B]çifte kurush[B], a silver two piasters coin valueing 100 para. Back side : the tughra of Sultan Selim III . Front side: inscription reads: duribe fi Islambol 1203, 9 and translates from Turkish as : minted in Istanbul (?) 1789, in the 9th year of reign. Sultan Selim III was a reformer by nature, thing that brought his end when he did that to the Janissaries who turned against him and took his life after briefly imprisoning him. His reforming measures where much needed in order to establish control in a giant Empire stretching over so much geopolitical field. He was first to consider European models as it was the great era of Napoleon and admiral Nelson which whom he fought unsucesfully during his reign. He was strangely enough born on Christmas day, 24th Dec 1761 and died in July 1808. The two picture are his portrait and on right is one of his muskets and flask , the cup is an English trophy part of owner`s collection not related. Attached Images Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 18th February 2005 at 07:18 PM.

17th February 2005, 11:15 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,620	Well radu, I have no clue about the inscriptions, but if I am not mistaken the tugra on all three coins belongs to Sultan Selim III (1789-1807), and the date on all three of them is 1203 or 1789. This is al I can help, and, oh yes, those would look great on a kindjal or khanjat hilt (you can still own them that way)

18th February 2005, 04:22 AM	#3
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Help ... help ...

18th February 2005, 07:38 AM	#4
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hi Radu, TVV is correct that it is Ottoman year 1789. The first and second is identical. All i can read is the word As-Sultan... (?) in the first row and third row of both coins. "Wa Hakkanul Bahrain" (Im not sure about this) in the second row. The fourth row reads "Islambul" and the fifth reads year 1203. The front side i can only read "Islambul" on the second line and 1203 on the third. The first is complex caligraphy. The first line on the third coin i'm unable to determine but the second line reads As-Sultan. This link might be helpful: http://www.rustypennies.com/catalog/turkish_coins.html

18th February 2005, 07:41 AM	#5
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	A normal day I know almost nothing about coins, but when a friend asks I have to learn fast. Dear son of Vlad, I think coins 1 and 2 are SILVER YUZLUK (1789-1808) . See http://www.joelscoins.com/mideast.htm I still looking for coin 3

19th February 2005, 05:41 PM	#7
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	Radu, great idea to show some Islamic coins! The attribution is right, except the date of minting. Coin 1 and 2 are minted in the second year of Selim’s reign, coin 3 in the forth year. You find the year on coin 1 and 2 in the 3rd row, left and on coin 3 on top of the front side (by the way, it is normally treated as the back side and the site with the Tughra as the front.) The Tughra reads: “Selim han bin Mustrafa elmuzafferü daima” – Selim, Lord, son of Mustafa the Ever Victorious. If your are interested in Ottoman coins, try to get hold of some literature, I recommend: 1. General - Artuk, I.+C. - Istanbul Arkeoloji Müzeleri Teshirdeki Islami Sikkeler Katalogu, Cilt I + II, Istanbul 1974 - Darphane Müzesi - Osmanli Madeni Paralari Katalogu, Istanbul 1985 - Fisekcioglu, G. - PARA 90, Istanbul 1990 (for the last 6 Sultans) - Pere, Nuri - Osmanlilarda Madeni Paraler, Istanbul 1968 - Sreckovic, S. – Akches Vol. 1. Orhan Gazi – Murad II. 699-848 AH, Belgrad 1999 - Sultan, Jem - Coins of the Ottoman Empire, U.S.A. 1977 2. Specialised - MacKenzie/Lachman - Countermarks of the Ottoman Empire, U.S.A. 1974 - Ölcer, C. - Avrupa Müzelerinde Nadir Osmanli Madeni Paralari, Istanbul 1984 - Ölcer, C. - Nakisli Osmanli Mangirlari, Istanbul 1975 - Ölcer, C. - Ottoman coinage during the reign of Sultan Abdülaziz Han, Istanbul 1979 - Ölcer, C. - Ottoman coinage during the Reign of Sultan Abdülmecid Han, Istanbul 1978 - Ölcer, C. - Ottoman coinage during the reign of Yavus Sultan Selim I., Istanbul 1989 - Ölcer, C. - Ottoman coinage during the reigns of Sultan Mehmed Resad and Sultan Mehmed Vahdeddin, Istanbul 1987 - Ölcer, C. - Sovyet Rusya Müzelerindeki Nadir Osmanli Madeni Paralari, Istanbul 1972 - Ölcer, C. - Sultan Mahmud II Zamaninda Darp Edilen Osmanli Madeni Paralari, Istanbul 1970 - Ölcer, C. - Sultan Murad V ve Sultan Abdülhamid Dönemi Osmanli Madeni Paralari, Istanbul 1986 - Ölcer, C. - Yilderim Beyazid'in Oglullarina ait Akce ve Mangirlar, Istanbul 1968 - Turkish Numismatic Society – A Festschrift presented to I. Artuk, Istanbul 1988 - Sreckovic, S. - Osmanlijski Novac Kovan Na Tlu Jugoslavije, Beograd 1987