A Chinese dau

M ELEY · 11th August 2015, 07:58 PM

I saved this old sword from a terrible fate!

Some non-Phi Beta Kappa had steel welded it to a dumbbell weight, so that it stood up as an 'object de art'. With the help of a dremil tool, steel saw and chisel, I returned to to an 'object de war'!

Iron ring pommel is an extension of the tang looped around. Hilt was flat with no holes. I padded and wrapped the hilt in old hemp, in a rebellious 'pirate styling' of the back country. Nicer examples have silk lace.

Interestingly, you will see laminated metal used in this blade. I used the classic pineapple juice and later vinegar treatment to remove the blackened/brown rust. Looking through about a hundred old sword catalogs, I did find one of a similar shape with patterned iron in an Fagan catalog. They were of the opinion that it must have come from the southern border, near Tibet/Bhutan? This could explain the pattern welding, if that is what this is?! No expert on such. Any opinions out there on this?

Although most of the ring hilts were two-handed beheaders (dadau), mine isn't nearly that large at 29" (21" blade). What would mine be classified as? Did the blade shape help classify these?

Purpose for the ring on these? I've heard for tassels, bells and from one online site that said they were to be used to create a rattling sound for intimidation?

How old? I would assume pre-Boxer, as the ring is iron and not brass/bronze and the patina was dark.

M ELEY · 11th August 2015, 11:40 PM

Bump-

Shakethetrees · 12th August 2015, 03:54 AM

I would use dirty cotton tape about 1/2" to 1" wide. The colors I've seen or owned are red, white, blue, or white with blue or black stripes. The white cloth was brown/rust colored and has calligraphy. If I can locate it I will post images.

M ELEY · 12th August 2015, 05:27 PM

Thanks, Shakethetrees. I'd like to see the effect it gives.

Timo Nieminen · 13th August 2015, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Interestingly, you will see laminated metal used in this blade. [...] They were of the opinion that it must have come from the southern border, near Tibet/Bhutan? This could explain the pattern welding, if that is what this is?! No expert on such. Any opinions out there on this?

Might not be pattern-welding as such. Even if it's made from modern scrap steel, it can still be made from a bunch of pieces welded together. Inserted-edge construction is common, with a high-carbon edge in a lower-carbon body.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Although most of the ring hilts were two-handed beheaders (dadau), mine isn't nearly that large at 29" (21" blade). What would mine be classified as? Did the blade shape help classify these?

Normal enough size for a dadao blade. Grips were often longer, but one-handed short-gripped ones appear to be called dadao too. Blade shape is the key. Not all dadao have ring pommels (though most do). Classification becomes fuzzy when (a) the blade shape is much more like a sabre-dao blade, or (b) the weapon is on the sword/polearm border,

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Purpose for the ring on these? I've heard for tassels, bells and from one online site that said they were to be used to create a rattling sound for intimidation?

For a practical purpose: carrying rope/strap. One end through ring pommel, other one through blade ring. Sometimes, for cut-down polearms, the ring is "inherited" from the polearms tassel ring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

How old? I would assume pre-Boxer, as the ring is iron and not brass/bronze and the patina was dark.

Even on very late ones (say, 1930s), the ring is usually forged from the end of the tang, so iron. A brass guard might suggest later, while iron guard might suggest earlier. With no surviving guard, hard to say. No guard might mean the original was brass or bronze, removed for recycling. I don't see any reason why this couldn't be 20th century; if pushed for a guess, I'd guess Boxer or early 20th century.

How thick is the blade, and how does that thickness vary along it? How heavy is it?

Shakethetrees · 13th August 2015, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

I would use dirty cotton tape about 1/2" to 1" wide. The colors I've seen or owned are red, white, blue, or white with blue or black stripes. The white cloth was brown/rust colored and has calligraphy. If I can locate it I will post images.

Here are two examples of wrapped grips. The striped one is from a pair of tiger hook swords, the bottom is from a Dadao. The image quality ain't so great, (and I apologize for this rush job!), but you can see some ink inscription that I can't make out enough to attempt translation.

You get the idea!

M ELEY · 14th August 2015, 01:28 AM

Hello all and thanks for responding!

Shakethetrees, yes, that is an excellent effect and look! I will definitely consider it for my dau.

Timo Nieminen, the sword appears to be very sound, weighs approx 5-6 lbs, is thickest near the hilt ring (at just under 1/4") narrowing towards the tip. The blade is sturdy and has a nice ring to it when tapped. Thanks for the info on the smaller ring purpose (makes total sense!) and the usage of dadau vs dau. I'd like to think of it as at least Boxer or earlier, so your 'guess' is welcome! I didn't realize that these always had a guard/crossguard, of which mine is missing? I've seen knuckle bows and disc guards on dau, but I've also seen many without, leading me to assume there were types with and without guards-

Timo Nieminen · 14th August 2015, 02:25 AM

There have been types of dao without guards, including recent ones (see pic), and plenty of Han through Tang dao. But I think most, if not almost all, dadao had guards. I don't remember seeing a contemporary photo of one without a guard. Disc, cup, short curled-tip cross-guard, and S-guards are all common. I do see some that are without guards today.

5-6 lbs is very heavy for a dadao, and seems too heavy for 1/4" and tapering.

Is the cross-section of the blade wedge-shaped?

As a one-piece sword, it should ring. Swords that don't usually have some movement in the hilt or guard that absorbs the energy of the vibrations.

Would be interesting to know how hard the edge is. One can estimate using hardness-testing files without much impact on the blade. Not so easy to do it completely non-destructively.

Shakethetrees · 14th August 2015, 05:31 AM

As I understand, dao translates to blade or edged weapon as a concept or idea. Daosi is a diminutive that translates to knife. Dadao, on the other hand, means large blade. All Dadao I have seen, both here and in China, were flat or had one or two shallow and narrow fillers running maybe 2/3 of the blade length. The point was of a "clipped" configuration with an expansion where the back meets the clip. Some, but not all, had a hole at this place for a streamer ring.

Guards were, as stated before, either disc/cupped, "S" or "C" shaped with a small scroll or rat tail at each end. During the 1920's to WWII era (loosely interpreted here) there were some with flat "C" shaped guards of cast brass and two narrow shallow fullers as I described. This brass guard terminated in a closed ring cast integrally with the guard. The example I have now (I need to find it!) has a macrame like woven string grip and ring cover that was lacquered. I've seen others with cloth and one with spiral leather wrapping.

There are two similar sized swords, but the names are euphemistic, one being ox tongue sword and I forget the other right now. The blades could be thick or thin, but did not follow the same lines as the Dadao.

I will go on a hunt to flesh out what I have written here, maybe get some pictures and more specific names. I need to find my notes!

M ELEY · 15th August 2015, 01:50 AM

Sorry, I was at work and sleeping!

Timo, I am a horrible judge of weights. My daughter used to have a mini-scale for measuring portions, but it's long gone. Perhaps a more accurate weight would be 3 lbs? Yes, the blade is wedge shaped and tapers from thick to thin at the tip (no gross fluctuations of thickness along its length).

Shakethetrees, please do attach whatever you have! I know there have been other threads on the subject, but there's always room for more! They are an interesting sword type.

11th August 2015, 07:58 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	A Chinese dau I saved this old sword from a terrible fate! Some non-Phi Beta Kappa had steel welded it to a dumbbell weight, so that it stood up as an 'object de art'. With the help of a dremil tool, steel saw and chisel, I returned to to an 'object de war'! Iron ring pommel is an extension of the tang looped around. Hilt was flat with no holes. I padded and wrapped the hilt in old hemp, in a rebellious 'pirate styling' of the back country. Nicer examples have silk lace. Interestingly, you will see laminated metal used in this blade. I used the classic pineapple juice and later vinegar treatment to remove the blackened/brown rust. Looking through about a hundred old sword catalogs, I did find one of a similar shape with patterned iron in an Fagan catalog. They were of the opinion that it must have come from the southern border, near Tibet/Bhutan? This could explain the pattern welding, if that is what this is?! No expert on such. Any opinions out there on this? Although most of the ring hilts were two-handed beheaders (dadau), mine isn't nearly that large at 29" (21" blade). What would mine be classified as? Did the blade shape help classify these? Purpose for the ring on these? I've heard for tassels, bells and from one online site that said they were to be used to create a rattling sound for intimidation? How old? I would assume pre-Boxer, as the ring is iron and not brass/bronze and the patina was dark. Attached Images Last edited by M ELEY; 11th August 2015 at 11:38 PM.

14th August 2015, 02:25 AM	#8
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	There have been types of dao without guards, including recent ones (see pic), and plenty of Han through Tang dao. But I think most, if not almost all, dadao had guards. I don't remember seeing a contemporary photo of one without a guard. Disc, cup, short curled-tip cross-guard, and S-guards are all common. I do see some that are without guards today. 5-6 lbs is very heavy for a dadao, and seems too heavy for 1/4" and tapering. Is the cross-section of the blade wedge-shaped? As a one-piece sword, it should ring. Swords that don't usually have some movement in the hilt or guard that absorbs the energy of the vibrations. Would be interesting to know how hard the edge is. One can estimate using hardness-testing files without much impact on the blade. Not so easy to do it completely non-destructively. Attached Images

11th August 2015, 11:40 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Bump-

12th August 2015, 03:54 AM	#3
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	I would use dirty cotton tape about 1/2" to 1" wide. The colors I've seen or owned are red, white, blue, or white with blue or black stripes. The white cloth was brown/rust colored and has calligraphy. If I can locate it I will post images.

12th August 2015, 05:27 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Thanks, Shakethetrees. I'd like to see the effect it gives.

14th August 2015, 01:28 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Hello all and thanks for responding! Shakethetrees, yes, that is an excellent effect and look! I will definitely consider it for my dau. Timo Nieminen, the sword appears to be very sound, weighs approx 5-6 lbs, is thickest near the hilt ring (at just under 1/4") narrowing towards the tip. The blade is sturdy and has a nice ring to it when tapped. Thanks for the info on the smaller ring purpose (makes total sense!) and the usage of dadau vs dau. I'd like to think of it as at least Boxer or earlier, so your 'guess' is welcome! I didn't realize that these always had a guard/crossguard, of which mine is missing? I've seen knuckle bows and disc guards on dau, but I've also seen many without, leading me to assume there were types with and without guards-

14th August 2015, 05:31 AM	#9
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	As I understand, dao translates to blade or edged weapon as a concept or idea. Daosi is a diminutive that translates to knife. Dadao, on the other hand, means large blade. All Dadao I have seen, both here and in China, were flat or had one or two shallow and narrow fillers running maybe 2/3 of the blade length. The point was of a "clipped" configuration with an expansion where the back meets the clip. Some, but not all, had a hole at this place for a streamer ring. Guards were, as stated before, either disc/cupped, "S" or "C" shaped with a small scroll or rat tail at each end. During the 1920's to WWII era (loosely interpreted here) there were some with flat "C" shaped guards of cast brass and two narrow shallow fullers as I described. This brass guard terminated in a closed ring cast integrally with the guard. The example I have now (I need to find it!) has a macrame like woven string grip and ring cover that was lacquered. I've seen others with cloth and one with spiral leather wrapping. There are two similar sized swords, but the names are euphemistic, one being ox tongue sword and I forget the other right now. The blades could be thick or thin, but did not follow the same lines as the Dadao. I will go on a hunt to flesh out what I have written here, maybe get some pictures and more specific names. I need to find my notes!

15th August 2015, 01:50 AM	#10
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Sorry, I was at work and sleeping! Timo, I am a horrible judge of weights. My daughter used to have a mini-scale for measuring portions, but it's long gone. Perhaps a more accurate weight would be 3 lbs? Yes, the blade is wedge shaped and tapers from thick to thin at the tip (no gross fluctuations of thickness along its length). Shakethetrees, please do attach whatever you have! I know there have been other threads on the subject, but there's always room for more! They are an interesting sword type.