Another noise maker

[fernando]

Certainly not a hand cannon. It stands upright, with a base slightly wider than its top; and a 'caliber' too large for a gonne. Let's call it mortar; some call it böller.
I bought this one more due to its attitude (read shape). I never realized the walls of these things are so much thicker down by the 'chamber' ... as cannons often are.
Very heavy; 5,3 Kgs.
It would be Portuguese ... in principle. Its age, i don't know; these devices are hard to date. From the XVI to the XVIII century all is possible. Anyone able to narrow this date range ?


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[Philip]

Trying to narrow down the chronology is indeed tough on something like this. This is a type of böller, I would think, because its shape calls for it standing upright. Even if the barrel was provided with a socket, or shaped to fit a stock, its conical bore would make it impractical as a projectile weapon. The problem with such a bore is that a ball of any given size would only go down to a certain point, and deciding what point is optimum in relation to the volume of powder is critical from a safety standpoint because if there is any air space in between, excessive pressure can be generated by the explosion, turning the barrel into a little bomb.

As a noisemaker or signal device, the design of such a device can stay unchanged for a very long time. There are three- (or more) barrel versions of these, forged of iron, found in different Far Eastern countries and the ones from 17th cent. Korea can hardly be distinguished from those from 19th cent. Indochina. So the generous range of dates that you suggest is perhaps the most realistic assessment.

[fernando]

Obrigado Filipe .
Actually i have gathered a number of these things, as also of actual hand cannons. I had promised myself ceasing further accumulation but, as i said, i found this one rather appealing.

[Philip]

Wonderful, you must have quite a variety of different styles and sizes. Hopefully you've tried to obtain from the sellers some info as to where they were found, and in what context (ruins, riverbed, possible battle site, etc). That might help answer questions about dates, especially for the hand cannons which must have disappeared from the scene when muskets became available although that process must have been gradual as well. Has anything been published in Portugal about these things? Any academics doing research to your knowledge? Maybe you can work with one of these guys so that we eventually have a published article, at least, about them.

I'm sure that this is not just a crazy idea of mine. Wasn't our late forum colleague, "Matchlock" up in Germany, quite serious about very early firearms as well?

[fernando]

In fact i was adviced by Matchlock in the acquisition of some cannons, both hand an portable. It was also through his knowledge that i could date some of my earliest examples as from the XIV and XV centuries.
But if it is difficult to age these things, is not easier to know their original provenance; most of them were bought in an impersonal manner, from sellers who wouldn't provide their previous track. The best guess is to trust that their origin is that of the country from where we buy them; some from Spain, some from Germany, one from South America and others said to be simply 'European'. The only one i can be pretty sure of is origin was a böller that came from a local church.
I don't think there is any local literature on these devices, either böllers and gonnes. Rainer Daehnhardt has a few interesting ones in his collection, but wrote not treatise abouth this subject that i know of. He has a theory that the earliest Portuguese hand gonnes were used in the battle of Aljubarrota, but i don't think this is more than a theory. But one thing i learnt in our conversations is that upright examples may not only be signal or noise makers but were also used for bellicose purposes, like traps and so. Would have i doubted this assumption they were soon vanished when i found in the web a French device that was destined to perform such job.


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[Philip]

Yes, obtaining provenance info is not possible in many cases when you are buying something casually at an antiques fair, flea market, or shop because the seller may not know. And sometimes when there is a "war story" attached, there is no documentation to back up what may be just hearsay or an assumption. But you can still learn a lot from collecting these things, for instance if you notice elements that are analogous to pieces in collections that do have more or less reliable documentation. Every bit of info counts, even if it only builds a tentative conclusion that's going to be replaced by something more solid later. Are their other collectors in Portugal who specialize in these, with whom you are sharing info and insight?

That multi-barrel "trap" gun is intriguing, and rare to have survived in such condition. Too bad there aren't more images like a side view showing the length and profile of the barrels! And to show us how they were ignited. To me, a trap device is something that is triggered by the thing you want to catch/shoot, so it must stand ready to go off after who-knows-how-long a waiting time. With gonnes, the requirement for a lit matchcord makes this impractical. However, I can see this thing as being of use as a "volley gun" fired by a defender standing behind the gate as the enemy approaches.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Philip

... But you can still learn a lot from collecting these things, for instance if you notice elements that are analogous to pieces in collections that do have more or less reliable documentation...

Yes; that happens once in a while. But no so often with these things; most times what you see are commercial sites, and what they announce is so obviously unreliable.

Originally Posted by Philip

...Are their other collectors in Portugal who specialize in these, with whom you are sharing info and insight?...

No, i am alone in this corner of the world.

Originally Posted by Philip

...That multi-barrel "trap" gun is intriguing, and rare to have survived in such condition. Too bad there aren't more images like a side view showing the length and profile of the barrels! And to show us how they were ignited....

All i recall is that this was a small square French style announcement in an illustrated sales catalogue published in the web ... ages ago.

Originally Posted by Philip

... To me, a trap device is something that is triggered by the thing you want to catch/shoot, so it must stand ready to go off after who-knows-how-long a waiting time...

In the classic modern sense, yes; i had them being activated with me around while in the army. But you often see ancient multi barrel devices in museums and surely they had a way (or ways) to ignite them.

Originally Posted by Philip

...However, I can see this thing as being of use as a "volley gun" fired by a defender standing behind the gate as the enemy approaches.

Rainer also mentioned tricks like them blasting under hard stuff, making it fly like projectiles under the enemy.

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by fernando

Certainly not a hand cannon. It stands upright, with a base slightly wider than its top; and a 'caliber' too large for a gonne. Let's call it mortar; some call it böller.
I bought this one more due to its attitude (read shape). I never realized the walls of these things are so much thicker down by the 'chamber' ... as cannons often are.
Very heavy; 5,3 Kgs.
It would be Portuguese ... in principle. Its age, i don't know; these devices are hard to date. From the XVI to the XVIII century all is possible. Anyone able to narrow this date range ?


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Dear Fernando,
You're certainly right, this is not a cannon. it is a noise maker indeed. Here is another similar one, with even thicker walls and heavier, over 10 kgs. You're right they're hard to date. one option is to compare them with marked and dated ones. This one has several marks on the body and based on them and other features someone knowledgeable (not me) put it to early/mid 1700's. I think yours is not far from that.

[fernando]

Thsnk you Alex.
I have some examples with marks, but none explicit, apart from the little 'dots' that apparently date from a determined period.
My heavier one weighs 15 Kgs, but such one is in principle a 'portable' cannon.
For some of them i have built a base, or a stock, trying to simulate period devices, as i observe in the web; notwidstanding the usual dilemma to distinguish noise makers from actual cannons.

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[ALEX]

Fernando,
You have wonderful displays. Seeing both noisemakers and short cannons side by sides I can see why would one have difficulties distinguishing them with certainty. Apart from size, any other characteristics that define each?

Also, just saw Mr. Elvis' PowerPoint presentation "COLLECTING ARMS AND ARMOR OF THE SOUTH INDIAN WARRIOR", and noticed this... just saying

[fernando]

Nice (so called) mortar from Madurai. Let's add the support text that comes with the picture:

" This mortar has a 1.3/4” bore and was probably mounted on a wooden stock which was inserted into the ground ".


This brings us to the question you are posing about distinguishing noise makers from cannons. I would start by reiterating that 'noise maker' is a rather vague classification, as those things have had multi purposes, other than just noise making. Let us call them 'non cannons' only for this conversation sake.

I take it for me that the basic ways to classify them are:
- The shape; if it has a design compatible with being standing up, often (but not forcingly) with a base (breech) wider than the mouth. Also if their profile is irregular, in away to make it unfeasible to insert them in a cannon stock cradle.
- A 'lip' on the (ignition) touch hole; again this is not an obliging detail, but only when the ignition is obtained by priming the touch hole with some powder grains, so that the powder doesn't spill. However this doesn't take place when the ignition is done with a piece of match cord. A further note to be considered is that, some (not frequent) times this lip is not a lip, but a protrusion to protect, in hand cannons, the gunners face/eye.
- The bore width, when is 'too large' to make it reasonable to lodge a projectile; 'non cannons' were filled with gunpowder and plugged with whatever material ... but no bullet.

On the other hand, this example from Madurai is called mortar. This is a tricky term in typology, depending on period and context. According to the author, this mortar might (might) have been mounted on a stock; still he doesn't call it cannon, but apparently this was made to shoot some kind of projectiles, judging by the stock attitude and a 'caliber' that would be within a range plausible to fit cannon balls or other damaging stuff.

Other than the above, only knowledgeable people may discern further distinctions. I am only a novice and, most probably, what i said above is not 100% reliable.

Attached are a 'Schopettieri' type and a 'Montjuic' type early cannons from my little collection; these are rather easy to distinguish.


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[Philip]

Fernando, muito obridago! Your presentation and display are worthy of a museum. (but a very unique museum where cats have the run of the place!)
The one with the "rat tail" handle sticking up on top, isn't that the chamber piece of a breech-loader?

[fernando]

Eu é que agradeço, Philip
In fact, there are two breech loading chambers in the pictures. They were within focus, i let them stay.
You are right about who runs things around here ... and they make a point in so showing .
Here is Adriano (not with us any more), supervising works on a cannon stand.


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