Zanzibar?

[Marcus]

I just purchased this item from Oriental Arms:

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=6136

Described as:

A very unusual and interesting Arab sword, also known as Saif. It reminds the famous Moroccan Nimcha, but although the hilt style is similar, this sword is coming from the South Arabian peninsula, and it is believed to be produced in the island of Zanzibar in the 19th C. The single edge curved blade is 30 inches long marked with a maker sign, probably of European origin. The grip is cut and beautifully shaped from a solid piece of black horn . The hilt is of unusual design and has a big steel ring forged in one piece with the cross guard and the “D” guard. Total length 36 inches. Very good condition. Very good untouched and homogenous patina on the blade. No scabbard. The attribution to Zanzibar comes from the characterized design of the hilt but we could not find any substantiation to it.

Over the years, Artzi has sold 15 other items of similar description (see list below), all with the same qualified association to Zanzibar. Does anyone know of a source which will confirm or reject this association?



http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2695
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3516
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3977
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=5882
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=4470
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=5048
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3864
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1485
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=4101
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3894
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=93
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2248
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1136
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1243
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1376

Marcus

[kahnjar1]

Hi Marcus,
I also have one of these, though not from Artzi. In my experience this style has always been referred to as a "Zanzibari Nimcha" though I have seen no conclusive evidence that they were actually made there. Like many Middle Eastern swords, the ACTUAL place of origin is often in doubt.
I should also add that the quality of these always appears to be quite good, though on looking thru the links you provide, I notice that some of the hilts are what I would describe as of "Tribal manufacture".
I have attached a couple of pics of mine, one of good quality like yours and the others showing what I call "Tribal" hilts.
Regards Stuart

[Marcus]

as I gather from Artzi's sample, many of these have European blades, often repurposed.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Marcus

as I gather from Artzi's sample, many of these have European blades, often repurposed.

Quite likely, though it must also be remembered that companies such as Wilkinson, and various Solingen companies exported blades only in large numbers to various Middle Eastern countries, notably Ethiopia.
Stu

[Oriental-Arms]

The story goes like this (As best as I could substantiate it, partially only):

In the mid 80’s, a lot of swords was found in an abandoned (?) Yemeni armory. They were purchased by a local dealer, transported over the Arabian desert, crossed the red sea and the Sinai peninsula and sea freighted to Cyprus. An Israeli antique dealer brought about 30 of the lot to Israel and sold it to one of the local collectors.

The variety was amassing. Mostly 19C. German made blades but few long straight ones has the Passau and Solingen running wolf stamping (I believe original and authentic stamps). The variety in quality and workmanship of the handles and guards was also great, but ALL had this peculiar guard with the “ring”, somewhat crudely made as rightly mentioned by Stuart. Unfortunately we could not get the ones with the running wolf stamp.

[Marcus]

Hi Artzi,
Is the sword I have purchased from the cache you describe?

Also, I am posting your picture of the maker's mark in the hopes that someone on this forum might recognize it.

[Jim McDougall]

The question regarding any substantial attribution of these 'D' ring saif's to Zanzibar is well placed. Actually some years ago I acquired one of these 30 swords from Artzi, and of course recall the provenance detail. I have always regarded Artzi's knowledge on arms to be outstanding, and entirely accepted this classification as 'Zanzibari' as correct.

In years following I saw the examples with these 'D' ring guards in "Catalog de la Collection D'Armes Anciennes, Europeennes et Orientales de Charles Buttin" (Francois Buttin, Rumilly, 1933).
I admittedly presumed I had seen reference in that catalog noting the Zanzibar provenance in years following, and did not recheck.

As I reviewed that reference this evening (items #996-1002) the examples shown with 'D' ring guards are all classified as 'Arab' and dating from 17th thru 18th centuries. There is no reference to Zanzibar in any of the text, but interestingly on p.258 there is a reference to the ring feature probably derived from various sword hilts from Italy and through constant contact with Venice.

About 10 years ago Louis-Pierre Cavalliere did a great paper on these sa'if typically termed 'nimcha' and in rechecking that, he showed variations in the hilts. These with 'D' rings were again, and correctly, shown as Arab, with no reference to Zanzibar.

The only reference to possible Zanzibar production of swords linked to these type hilts is found in "Islamic Weapons: Maghreb to Mughul" (A.Tirri, 2003, p.79), ".in Zanzibar, documentary evidence identifies an extensive edged weapon manufacturing center during the 19th and 20th centuries". While this sounds compelling, this 'documented evidence' is not cited, and only presumes these type hilts must have been among the arms produced.

As shown in the links Marcus has provided to the examples of these from the Oriental Arms site, the attribution to Zanzibar though presumed, is noted as never having been substantiated.

Therefore it would seem that the Zanzibari attribution to these D ring hilts has developed through collectors lore, to which I myself long subscribed.
It is interesting to note that among various hilts of these sa'if there is one type which has projecting pitons on either side. Perhaps the addition of the bar across the blade was a developed with this as a transitional form, it is hard to say. The reference to the similarity to Italian hilts with the ring feature (Buttin, op.cit.p 258) is of course freely associated and conjectural, yet naturally compelling with these trade connections.

In the collecting world there has always been a compulsion for 'neat' classifications and terminology , but as can be seen, these are often quite misleading and eventually can be counterproductive.
I would say these sa'ifs with this peculiar 'D' ring feature should be included collectively with Arabian forms of sa'if typologically, with specific qualification to Zanzibar added with said detail noted as inconclusive as Artzi has clearly done.

[kahnjar1]

Hi Jim,
You seem to agree with my thoughts at #2 above where I commented that I had not seen any CONCLUSIVE evidence that this hilt style was produced in Zanzibar. Also I agree that us collectors tend to like to put things on nice little boxes, but I suppose that if we talk about such things as "Zanzibari" hilts and "Wahabite" daggers then everyone else knows what the subject is, even if the terms used are perhaps way off beam.
I DO like the term "Arab" for these swords as that is what they actually are, rather than Moroccan or Magrebi. To me "Arab" means from the Arabian Peninsula rather that large part of North Africa, which is also inhabited by Arabian races.
Regards Stu

[ariel]

A funny thing about the "Artzi's" sword is the date: it looks like a mirror image of 1237. Digital photo should not produce such a distortion. Local screw-up? Sounds unlikely....
Any explanation ?

Overall, I like them very much. Recently, there was on on e-bay, outstanding quality and condition, but I was outbid. Drats!

I wanted to upload the pics,but the files are too big.
If anybody knows how to compress them, I shall be grateful, and it would be great for the archives.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-RARE...p2047675.l2557

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Jim,
You seem to agree with my thoughts at #2 above where I commented that I had not seen any CONCLUSIVE evidence that this hilt style was produced in Zanzibar. Also I agree that us collectors tend to like to put things on nice little boxes, but I suppose that if we talk about such things as "Zanzibari" hilts and "Wahabite" daggers then everyone else knows what the subject is, even if the terms used are perhaps way off beam.
I DO like the term "Arab" for these swords as that is what they actually are, rather than Moroccan or Magrebi. To me "Arab" means from the Arabian Peninsula rather that large part of North Africa, which is also inhabited by Arabian races.
Regards Stu

Exactly Stu, and as I noted I admit that I long followed that same philosophy and truly wanted to better categorize certain types of weapons and better understand developments of the forms. The thing is that in reality things don't always fall so perfectly into place, and often a generally held classification proves incorrect.

I think what is important is to try to comprehensively gather as much data as possible on the topic or form at hand, then to document it as responsibly as we can. You're right on the use of terms, sometimes even loosely classified terms are easier to use in discussions where semantically they are familiar to those involved. For example 'nimcha' is commonly accepted as the term for these saif, yet we know it is not necessarily the correct term.

Best regards,
Jim

[kahnjar1]

Agreed Jim.
Ariel.....the "system" would not let me compress the pics so we will just have to go with the link. What is shown is the typical D guard "Zanzibar"Sayf. Wow that was a healthy price paid although it DOES have a nice scabbard!!
Stu