Keris for discussion

Caedo · 30th September 2016, 02:56 AM

I recently acquired my second keris and thought I would post some pictures. It has a type of pamor miring that seems to be somewhat unusual. The only other example I could find via google was from a 2008 post here on this forum.

Based on what I know about the previous owners, I am guessing that this keris was purchased in Bali, probably around 1999 or 2000. My best synthesis of available Internet material, however, makes me think the dress at least could have originated in Madura or perhaps Lombok. Anyone with a more learned opinion should most definitely correct me.

The individual wires making up the pamor are very distinct, and it makes the blade seem almost like it was not quite finished, the smith having stopped just short of hammering the wires into a solid piece.

My apologies for picture quality and not getting a clearer picture of the...um, handle thing. (If anyone could explain the differences between and/or appropriate usage of the terms "hulu", "ukiran", and "deder", I would be eternally grateful.)

David · 30th September 2016, 06:43 PM

Hi Caedo. This piece looks rather contemporary to me and i could be wrong, but it appears that it has no core. It if very possibly Madura work. Others my know better.
The words "hulu", "ukiran" and "deder" all mean hilt. I am not certain if one is any more appropriate to another, though the exact culture where the keris originates might be a guide. However, as a Western collector i don't see any difference in using any of them as a descriptor and really thing the word "hilt" is just as acceptable a term to use on an English based forum.

Jean · 30th September 2016, 08:56 PM

I agree with David, this piece looks like a recent piece from Madura, the blade has a pamor pattern Eri Wader looking like a herring-bone.
The scabbard is in Sandang Walikat style and the Madurese hilt (locally called landeyan) is in approximate Bajing Loncat (jumping squirrel) style

Regards

Green · 30th September 2016, 09:13 PM

from linguistic standpoint 'ukiran' means 'carvings.' in Bahasa Melayu (Malay) or Bahasa Indonesia... so ukiran could be on the hilt or the scabbard or anywhere else. hence ukiran is not synonymous with 'hulu' which can be correctly translated as 'hilt'.

A. G. Maisey · 30th September 2016, 10:55 PM

Yes Green, true, however, in Javanese the word "ukiran" means "keris hilt" as well as carving.

The usual alternate word for "keris hilt"in Javanese is "jejeran".

Rick · 1st October 2016, 12:34 AM

It appears to me that this keris had to have been heavily etched to bring out such topography.
This brings me to the question of how one element of the pamor can resist the etching medium so well while the other literally melts away?

As a piece of sculptural art; I love it.

David · 1st October 2016, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes Green, true, however, in Javanese the word "ukiran" means "keris hilt" as well as carving.

The usual alternate word for "keris hilt"in Javanese is "jejeran".

I agree with Alan here. It's all about the context of usage. Ukiran is certainly an acceptable word for a keris hilt regardless of its precise literal meaning. We also cannot look to current Bahasa Indonesian for definitions since these words in keris context generally come from old Javanese as a source. Hulu, in Bahasa Indonesian, translates as "upper," "upstream", "head" or "headwaters". You will not find a translator that gives its definition as "hilt". Still, it too is an acceptable word for hilt in the context of keris discussion, especially amongst collectors who recognize that usage.
But there is no particular arcane or occult knowledge to be gained through the use of any of these words as for as i can see and as i stated before, on an English speaking forum the word "hilt" is probably the most appropriate word to use when trying to describe a "hilt". Of course keris collectors will recognize any of these other words to mean "hilt" as well and in the end the purpose of understanding language is so that we can all understand each other.

There are, of course, certain keris terms that i find it best to use the Javanese words for simply because there are no easy ways to describe those parts in English. So terms like gonjo (ganja), gandik, sogokan, tikel alis, sekar kacang, greneng, pendok, mendak, etc. are all words i tend to employ since they accurately describe what i am talking about in the least amount of words.

Caedo · 1st October 2016, 01:16 AM

Many thanks to all for the information. I had accidentally made the connection between the words ukiran and carving, since the searches I had done for "ukiran" tended to show elaborately carved hilts. Likewise, searching for "hulu" tends to bring up pictures of mostly Bugis hilts, and "deder" pulls up what I think of as the generic Javanese hilts that I see on most keris. All of that made me reluctant to use any of those terms without more information.

My assumption was that the keris had been purchased new in 2000, in spite of the obligatory assurances that it was ancient.

Battara · 1st October 2016, 04:56 PM

I'm with you Rick, may not be traditional, but it is art, and I love it too...

David · 1st October 2016, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I'm with you Rick, may not be traditional, but it is art, and I love it too...

It is indeed "art", but i don't particularly love it. Such is the way with art.

30th September 2016, 02:56 AM	#1
Caedo Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Tennessee Posts: 11	Keris for discussion I recently acquired my second keris and thought I would post some pictures. It has a type of pamor miring that seems to be somewhat unusual. The only other example I could find via google was from a 2008 post here on this forum. Based on what I know about the previous owners, I am guessing that this keris was purchased in Bali, probably around 1999 or 2000. My best synthesis of available Internet material, however, makes me think the dress at least could have originated in Madura or perhaps Lombok. Anyone with a more learned opinion should most definitely correct me. The individual wires making up the pamor are very distinct, and it makes the blade seem almost like it was not quite finished, the smith having stopped just short of hammering the wires into a solid piece. My apologies for picture quality and not getting a clearer picture of the...um, handle thing. (If anyone could explain the differences between and/or appropriate usage of the terms "hulu", "ukiran", and "deder", I would be eternally grateful.) Attached Images

30th September 2016, 06:43 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Hi Caedo. This piece looks rather contemporary to me and i could be wrong, but it appears that it has no core. It if very possibly Madura work. Others my know better. The words "hulu", "ukiran" and "deder" all mean hilt. I am not certain if one is any more appropriate to another, though the exact culture where the keris originates might be a guide. However, as a Western collector i don't see any difference in using any of them as a descriptor and really thing the word "hilt" is just as acceptable a term to use on an English based forum.

30th September 2016, 08:56 PM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I agree with David, this piece looks like a recent piece from Madura, the blade has a pamor pattern Eri Wader looking like a herring-bone. The scabbard is in Sandang Walikat style and the Madurese hilt (locally called landeyan) is in approximate Bajing Loncat (jumping squirrel) style Regards

30th September 2016, 09:13 PM	#4
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	from linguistic standpoint 'ukiran' means 'carvings.' in Bahasa Melayu (Malay) or Bahasa Indonesia... so ukiran could be on the hilt or the scabbard or anywhere else. hence ukiran is not synonymous with 'hulu' which can be correctly translated as 'hilt'.

30th September 2016, 10:55 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Yes Green, true, however, in Javanese the word "ukiran" means "keris hilt" as well as carving. The usual alternate word for "keris hilt"in Javanese is "jejeran".

1st October 2016, 12:34 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	It appears to me that this keris had to have been heavily etched to bring out such topography. This brings me to the question of how one element of the pamor can resist the etching medium so well while the other literally melts away? As a piece of sculptural art; I love it.

1st October 2016, 01:16 AM	#8
Caedo Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Tennessee Posts: 11	Many thanks to all for the information. I had accidentally made the connection between the words ukiran and carving, since the searches I had done for "ukiran" tended to show elaborately carved hilts. Likewise, searching for "hulu" tends to bring up pictures of mostly Bugis hilts, and "deder" pulls up what I think of as the generic Javanese hilts that I see on most keris. All of that made me reluctant to use any of those terms without more information. My assumption was that the keris had been purchased new in 2000, in spite of the obligatory assurances that it was ancient.

1st October 2016, 04:56 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	I'm with you Rick, may not be traditional, but it is art, and I love it too...