Difference between a Klewang and Bangkung

Spunjer · 22nd December 2004, 10:12 PM

how can you differenciate between the two? it seems to me that the blades looks exactly the same; if it wasn't for the handle, i can't tell the difference. case in point is zelbone's bangkung and a fine specimen on artzi's website. now let me throw in the t'boli kampilan aka toh. again, it seems like if it wasn't for the handle, i can't really tell the difference.

another thing: if the handle is bound with fiber, jute and/or rattan is it more or less a moro weapon? i've been wondering about this.

please discuss...

Ian · 23rd December 2004, 02:42 PM

Spunjer:

Short answer: what we speak of as a "klewang" or "bangkung" reflects a difference in name, not the basic weapon. True, some are heavier than others, some have slightly curved edges, some have fancy file work on the blade, some have chisel edges, some have fancy brass hilts, etc., etc. Bottom line, they are all forward-weighted, single-edged chopping blades, that widen progressively from hilt to tip -- some are squared off at the end, others more rounded, and some have more unusual shapes.

The kampilan is an uncommonly long form of the same family of blade. The Dyak mandau is also in the same broad group. The dao of the Naga and Kachin in northern Burma, Assam, and nearby areas are futher examples. And the list goes on. The same basic design can be traced throughout SE Asia and beyond. It is an efficient blade for a chopper, often adopted from agricultural or domestic uses to the necessities of conflict -- that seems to be true for many different cultures and ethnic groups.

With respect to particular materials used to construct hilts or scabbards, I would be cautious in creating hard and fast rules for any weapons from the Philippines. There is considerable variety.

Ian.

VANDOO · 24th December 2004, 05:38 AM

OFTEN FUNCTION DETERMINES DESIGN, SO IN JUNGLE AREAS WHERE A HEAVY CHOPPER IS NEEDED THERE IS MUCH SIMULARITY IN THOSE UTITILATARIAN TOOLS. EVERYONE LIVING IN THESE ENVIRONMENTS NEEDS ONE OF THESE TOOLS AND IT ALSO SERVES AS A WEAPON IF NEED BE.
A INDIVIDUAL OR GROUP MAY DEVELOP WEAPONS FROM THESE TOOLS, THAT WILL BE DIFFERENT TO SET THEM APART FROM THE MORE COMMON CHOPPERS. FOR EXAMPLE THE TIBOLI SWORDS HAVE BEAUTIFUL ART WORK ON THE HANDLES AND SOMETIMES THE SCABBARDS BUT THE BLADES ARE PRIMARLY WORK BLADES. THE KANPLIAN IS TOO LONG TO BE A GOOD TOOL AND HAS A GAURD AND OFTEN A METAL GAURD AS WELL SO I WOULD CLASSIFY IT AS A WEAPON ONLY. KLEWANGS COME IN THE PLAIN WORKING VARITEY AND THE STATUS TYPES (WITH BEAUTIFUL SILVER WORKED SCABBARDS AND SHEITHS AND PARMOR BLADES) PEOPLE WEALTHY ENOUGH TO HAVE THEM HAD WORKERS OR SLAVES TO DO ALL THEIR WORK CHOPPING IN THE JUNGLES. I WOULD IMAGINE IN AREAS OR GROUPS WHERE THERE WAS CONSTANT FIGHTING WEAPONS WOULD BE MORE LIKELY TO BE MODIFIED FOR A BETTER WEAPON. PEACFUL FARMING COMUNITYS WOULD MOSTLY HAVE STANDARD TOOLS PERHAPS WITH SOME LOCAL TRIBAL DECORATIONS.
A BANKUNG WILL STILL FUNCTION AS A GOOD JUNGLE CHOPPER BUT STILL MAKES A GOOD WEAPON ALSO.
I DON'T THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF HEAVY CHOPPING SWORDS IN DESERT AREAS AS THEY ARE NOT NEEDED, JUST A SMALL AXE FOR FIREWOOD PERHAPS. JUST A FEW THOUGHTS RIGHT OR WRONG

Spunjer · 24th December 2004, 04:37 PM

it seems like what is known as klewang is actually a catchall term for a certain type of indo weapon, much like the term 'bolo' in pilipino, yes? what i'm referring to as klewang, again is the one on artzi's website (http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1325), has a blade that is remarkably similar to the example of a bangkung on cato's book, save for the handle. since bangkung is a very rare moro weapon, how would i differentiate what is what? i'm sure besides the kakatua hilt and zel's naga hilt, there's prolly some other type of hilts out there we don't know about. that's what i'm trying to find out here; how do you know if it's an indo klewang or a moro bangkung?

zelbone · 24th December 2004, 06:53 PM

It's really not that difficult to tell a bangkung from a klewang if you are familiar with any Moro or more specifically Sulu weapons. However, I've heard bangkungs referred to as Moro klewangs (confused now

?) The blades are similar and as Ian mentioned just a difference in name. Klewang is more of a Indo/Malay term than Filipino. Now to confuse you even more, I heard that a long slender barong is sometimes referred to as a parang...and this was from a Moro...and the short, fat barongs as badi.

Anyways, back to the bangkung. As Ian stated the blade form is common throughout the Philippines...and Indonesia and Malaysia as well. It's a good chopping design as Vandoo points out and he should know since I've seen his bangkung as well...as well as his jimpul, gayang, janap, etc. Anyways we see this basic blade form in the bangkung as well as the T'boli tok or pa-is and Bagobo and B'laan sundang in Mindanao (I believe the bangkung is a Yakan weapon...Zamboanga could probably confirm this.) Furthermore, you see this form in the binangon and ginunting of the Visayas as well as the binakoko of Batangas. All share in common a blade with a straight flat spine and edge that gets wider from hilt to tip with a drop point tip...much like a sheepsfoot blade on a pocketknife. What separates the bangkung from the binangon, ginunting, tok, pais, klewang, etc. is the way the blade is dressed. Sure the Visayan weapons will most likely be chisel-edged while the bangkung will be bevelled on both sides and may be laminated like most other Moro weapons, but the style of the hilt and scabbard is what will give it away. The bangkung will have a hilt similar to most other Moro weapons. It could have the "Naga" hilt like my example or the one in Cato's book, or it could be dressed in the typical Sulu horsehoof fashion as found on the kalis (I think Ian and Ibeam have examples with horsehoof hilts.) I've also seen them with barong type kakatua hilts. Now if you put a cast brass hilt on it with little hawkbells attached to the pommel, I'd call it a T'boli tok. Replace that hilt with a Visayan Deity hilt, and I'd call it a binangon. Put an octagonal hilt with a small ferrule on that blade and peen the tang on the end of the hilt, and you have a binakoko. Basically, the same blade, but different hilts. Same goes for the scabbard, if it looks similar to a barong, pira, or even a kalis scabbard, then you have a bangkung. Tooled leather scabbard with an attached belt...binakoko. Wood scabbard bound in brass bands with a leather wrapped throat...binangon. Wood scabbard covered in woven abaca fiber with brass projections and horsehair at the toe...tok or pais. See where I'm getting at

?

VANDOO · 25th December 2004, 01:19 AM

THE SWORD AT ORIENTAL ARMS IS REFERED TO AS A" CO JANG" AND IS ONE OF THE SUMATRA ACEH SWORDS, THE HULU (HANDLE) IS REFERED TO AS TAPA GUDA AND IS GENERALY HORN. THESE ARE USUALLY QUITE A BIT LARGER THAN A BANGKUNG. SOME HAVE BEAUTIFUL WATERED STEEL BLADES AND ARE FAIRLY LIGHT FOR THEIR SIZE ,NOT THICK HEAVY BLADES, SO ARE FAIRLY FAST IN THE HAND. SEE VAN ZONNEVELD'S BOOK ON INDONESIAN WEAPONS PAGE 40. THEY ARE NOT MADE WITH SCABARDS SO ARE CARRIED BARE BLADE OR WITH SOMETHING WRAPPED AROUND THEM.
TRADITIONAL WEAPONS OF THE INDONESIAN ARCHIPELAGO IS A GOOD BOOK TO GIVE YOU SOME IDEA OF JUST HOW COMPLICATED NAMEING AND PLACEING WEAPONS FROM AREA TO AREA CAN BE.

zamboanga · 26th December 2004, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelbone

(I believe the bangkung is a Yakan weapon...Zamboanga could probably confirm this.)

zel, the bangkung is used both by the Yakans and Tausugs. It is unlike the pira which is exclusive to the yakans.

Spunjer · 26th December 2004, 03:04 PM

sorry for the late response. been hit with a nasty ice storm. at the moment, i'm on a relative's pc.

anywho, excellent thread and thank you all for your responses. going back to the bangkung:
so basically a bangkung is recognized by its hilt and scabbard. are there any other hilts out there that exist on a bangkung besides the barung style hilt and naga hilt. since it's used by the yakans as zamboanga and zel mentioned, i would assume that a yakan pira-esque type also exist, although i haven't seen one. are there any other types of hilt besides what has been mentioned?

zelbone · 26th December 2004, 05:48 PM

Zamboanga...thanks for the clarification! Do you know if the Samal use the bangkung as well.

Spunger, don't forget the horsehoof hilt similar to ones found on a kalis.

Spunjer · 28th December 2004, 03:04 AM

now, is this a bangkung or an indo klewang?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT

Battara · 28th December 2004, 03:15 AM

Spunger, I almost bid on this. I would consider this a bangkung. For me what really indicates this as more Philippine/Moro is the cockatua pommel, although as Ian aptley stated, there is difficulty coming up with hard and fast rules in this region of the world. I base my opinion on the blade shape and on the pommel.

Spunjer · 28th December 2004, 04:28 AM

the hilt is very similar to this kris that was much talked about a few months ago:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002597.html
the colored rattan band kinda threw me off, tho. have you seen that on moro weapons (colored rattan band)?

Battara · 28th December 2004, 05:52 PM

I just assumed that it was a later repair. As I look at it again, it does look decorative in the use of different colors of rattan. No, I have not seen that on PI Moro stuff. I have seen that on some things from Borneo (where Moros also live). Of course, variations always exist in these pieces. I don't think it would be a major issue.

22nd December 2004, 10:12 PM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Difference between a Klewang and Bangkung how can you differenciate between the two? it seems to me that the blades looks exactly the same; if it wasn't for the handle, i can't tell the difference. case in point is zelbone's bangkung and a fine specimen on artzi's website. now let me throw in the t'boli kampilan aka toh. again, it seems like if it wasn't for the handle, i can't really tell the difference. another thing: if the handle is bound with fiber, jute and/or rattan is it more or less a moro weapon? i've been wondering about this. please discuss...

23rd December 2004, 02:42 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	What's in a name? Spunjer: Short answer: what we speak of as a "klewang" or "bangkung" reflects a difference in name, not the basic weapon. True, some are heavier than others, some have slightly curved edges, some have fancy file work on the blade, some have chisel edges, some have fancy brass hilts, etc., etc. Bottom line, they are all forward-weighted, single-edged chopping blades, that widen progressively from hilt to tip -- some are squared off at the end, others more rounded, and some have more unusual shapes. The kampilan is an uncommonly long form of the same family of blade. The Dyak mandau is also in the same broad group. The dao of the Naga and Kachin in northern Burma, Assam, and nearby areas are futher examples. And the list goes on. The same basic design can be traced throughout SE Asia and beyond. It is an efficient blade for a chopper, often adopted from agricultural or domestic uses to the necessities of conflict -- that seems to be true for many different cultures and ethnic groups. With respect to particular materials used to construct hilts or scabbards, I would be cautious in creating hard and fast rules for any weapons from the Philippines. There is considerable variety. Ian.

25th December 2004, 01:19 AM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE SWORD AT ORIENTAL ARMS IS REFERED TO AS A" CO JANG" AND IS ONE OF THE SUMATRA ACEH SWORDS, THE HULU (HANDLE) IS REFERED TO AS TAPA GUDA AND IS GENERALY HORN. THESE ARE USUALLY QUITE A BIT LARGER THAN A BANGKUNG. SOME HAVE BEAUTIFUL WATERED STEEL BLADES AND ARE FAIRLY LIGHT FOR THEIR SIZE ,NOT THICK HEAVY BLADES, SO ARE FAIRLY FAST IN THE HAND. SEE VAN ZONNEVELD'S BOOK ON INDONESIAN WEAPONS PAGE 40. THEY ARE NOT MADE WITH SCABARDS SO ARE CARRIED BARE BLADE OR WITH SOMETHING WRAPPED AROUND THEM. TRADITIONAL WEAPONS OF THE INDONESIAN ARCHIPELAGO IS A GOOD BOOK TO GIVE YOU SOME IDEA OF JUST HOW COMPLICATED NAMEING AND PLACEING WEAPONS FROM AREA TO AREA CAN BE. Last edited by VANDOO; 25th December 2004 at 01:26 AM. Reason: ADD MORE INFO

24th December 2004, 05:38 AM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	OFTEN FUNCTION DETERMINES DESIGN, SO IN JUNGLE AREAS WHERE A HEAVY CHOPPER IS NEEDED THERE IS MUCH SIMULARITY IN THOSE UTITILATARIAN TOOLS. EVERYONE LIVING IN THESE ENVIRONMENTS NEEDS ONE OF THESE TOOLS AND IT ALSO SERVES AS A WEAPON IF NEED BE. A INDIVIDUAL OR GROUP MAY DEVELOP WEAPONS FROM THESE TOOLS, THAT WILL BE DIFFERENT TO SET THEM APART FROM THE MORE COMMON CHOPPERS. FOR EXAMPLE THE TIBOLI SWORDS HAVE BEAUTIFUL ART WORK ON THE HANDLES AND SOMETIMES THE SCABBARDS BUT THE BLADES ARE PRIMARLY WORK BLADES. THE KANPLIAN IS TOO LONG TO BE A GOOD TOOL AND HAS A GAURD AND OFTEN A METAL GAURD AS WELL SO I WOULD CLASSIFY IT AS A WEAPON ONLY. KLEWANGS COME IN THE PLAIN WORKING VARITEY AND THE STATUS TYPES (WITH BEAUTIFUL SILVER WORKED SCABBARDS AND SHEITHS AND PARMOR BLADES) PEOPLE WEALTHY ENOUGH TO HAVE THEM HAD WORKERS OR SLAVES TO DO ALL THEIR WORK CHOPPING IN THE JUNGLES. I WOULD IMAGINE IN AREAS OR GROUPS WHERE THERE WAS CONSTANT FIGHTING WEAPONS WOULD BE MORE LIKELY TO BE MODIFIED FOR A BETTER WEAPON. PEACFUL FARMING COMUNITYS WOULD MOSTLY HAVE STANDARD TOOLS PERHAPS WITH SOME LOCAL TRIBAL DECORATIONS. A BANKUNG WILL STILL FUNCTION AS A GOOD JUNGLE CHOPPER BUT STILL MAKES A GOOD WEAPON ALSO. I DON'T THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF HEAVY CHOPPING SWORDS IN DESERT AREAS AS THEY ARE NOT NEEDED, JUST A SMALL AXE FOR FIREWOOD PERHAPS. JUST A FEW THOUGHTS RIGHT OR WRONG

24th December 2004, 04:37 PM	#4
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	it seems like what is known as klewang is actually a catchall term for a certain type of indo weapon, much like the term 'bolo' in pilipino, yes? what i'm referring to as klewang, again is the one on artzi's website (http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1325), has a blade that is remarkably similar to the example of a bangkung on cato's book, save for the handle. since bangkung is a very rare moro weapon, how would i differentiate what is what? i'm sure besides the kakatua hilt and zel's naga hilt, there's prolly some other type of hilts out there we don't know about. that's what i'm trying to find out here; how do you know if it's an indo klewang or a moro bangkung?

24th December 2004, 06:53 PM	#5
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	It's really not that difficult to tell a bangkung from a klewang if you are familiar with any Moro or more specifically Sulu weapons. However, I've heard bangkungs referred to as Moro klewangs (confused now ?) The blades are similar and as Ian mentioned just a difference in name. Klewang is more of a Indo/Malay term than Filipino. Now to confuse you even more, I heard that a long slender barong is sometimes referred to as a parang...and this was from a Moro...and the short, fat barongs as badi. Anyways, back to the bangkung. As Ian stated the blade form is common throughout the Philippines...and Indonesia and Malaysia as well. It's a good chopping design as Vandoo points out and he should know since I've seen his bangkung as well...as well as his jimpul, gayang, janap, etc. Anyways we see this basic blade form in the bangkung as well as the T'boli tok or pa-is and Bagobo and B'laan sundang in Mindanao (I believe the bangkung is a Yakan weapon...Zamboanga could probably confirm this.) Furthermore, you see this form in the binangon and ginunting of the Visayas as well as the binakoko of Batangas. All share in common a blade with a straight flat spine and edge that gets wider from hilt to tip with a drop point tip...much like a sheepsfoot blade on a pocketknife. What separates the bangkung from the binangon, ginunting, tok, pais, klewang, etc. is the way the blade is dressed. Sure the Visayan weapons will most likely be chisel-edged while the bangkung will be bevelled on both sides and may be laminated like most other Moro weapons, but the style of the hilt and scabbard is what will give it away. The bangkung will have a hilt similar to most other Moro weapons. It could have the "Naga" hilt like my example or the one in Cato's book, or it could be dressed in the typical Sulu horsehoof fashion as found on the kalis (I think Ian and Ibeam have examples with horsehoof hilts.) I've also seen them with barong type kakatua hilts. Now if you put a cast brass hilt on it with little hawkbells attached to the pommel, I'd call it a T'boli tok. Replace that hilt with a Visayan Deity hilt, and I'd call it a binangon. Put an octagonal hilt with a small ferrule on that blade and peen the tang on the end of the hilt, and you have a binakoko. Basically, the same blade, but different hilts. Same goes for the scabbard, if it looks similar to a barong, pira, or even a kalis scabbard, then you have a bangkung. Tooled leather scabbard with an attached belt...binakoko. Wood scabbard bound in brass bands with a leather wrapped throat...binangon. Wood scabbard covered in woven abaca fiber with brass projections and horsehair at the toe...tok or pais. See where I'm getting at ?

26th December 2004, 03:04 PM	#8
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	sorry for the late response. been hit with a nasty ice storm. at the moment, i'm on a relative's pc. anywho, excellent thread and thank you all for your responses. going back to the bangkung: so basically a bangkung is recognized by its hilt and scabbard. are there any other hilts out there that exist on a bangkung besides the barung style hilt and naga hilt. since it's used by the yakans as zamboanga and zel mentioned, i would assume that a yakan pira-esque type also exist, although i haven't seen one. are there any other types of hilt besides what has been mentioned?

26th December 2004, 05:48 PM	#9
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Zamboanga...thanks for the clarification! Do you know if the Samal use the bangkung as well. Spunger, don't forget the horsehoof hilt similar to ones found on a kalis.

28th December 2004, 03:04 AM	#10
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	now, is this a bangkung or an indo klewang? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT

28th December 2004, 03:15 AM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,225	Spunger, I almost bid on this. I would consider this a bangkung. For me what really indicates this as more Philippine/Moro is the cockatua pommel, although as Ian aptley stated, there is difficulty coming up with hard and fast rules in this region of the world. I base my opinion on the blade shape and on the pommel.

28th December 2004, 04:28 AM	#12
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	the hilt is very similar to this kris that was much talked about a few months ago: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002597.html the colored rattan band kinda threw me off, tho. have you seen that on moro weapons (colored rattan band)?

28th December 2004, 05:52 PM	#13
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,225	I just assumed that it was a later repair. As I look at it again, it does look decorative in the use of different colors of rattan. No, I have not seen that on PI Moro stuff. I have seen that on some things from Borneo (where Moros also live). Of course, variations always exist in these pieces. I don't think it would be a major issue.