Kindjal to share, help please, markings, age, location, thanks

JoeCanada42 · 21st April 2021, 08:03 PM

Recently Arrived this Morning, I got it from eBay, I think I got real lucky on this one. The seller recently sold a a couple sabers before this ,they were amazing, and I was hoping they would show up on the forum. If its alright I would share a couple photos of the swords. There was also post cards and photos sold, I would share a few that were cool. if that's allowed

I Have only done a little research into Kindjals, if people could help me find out the origin, and age,
The blade marking???

I don't think this was a military issue?, I almost see what could be a marking of a signature, the blade is 2 inches wide, and 15 inches long, 21 inches total with handle. Its very sharp.
Is this technically a short sword?

JoeCanada42 · 21st April 2021, 08:04 PM

more photos

JoeCanada42 · 21st April 2021, 08:05 PM

last of photos

francantolin · 21st April 2021, 08:26 PM

Hello,
welcome to the kindjal club !

I think it's a caucase/ Russian cossack kindjal with silver tip and parts,
hilt seems made of horn,

end of 19th century ?

I've seen these marks on blades but don't remember were they come from,
sure specialists will help you !

JoeCanada42 · 21st April 2021, 08:43 PM

Thanks, its my First Kindjal, Got to say its bigger then I expected very formidable, seems to big to call a dagger.

mariusgmioc · 21st April 2021, 08:57 PM

Georgian would be my guess, but rather low grade.

CNK1 · 21st April 2021, 09:06 PM

Good evening,

This is for sure a nice Kindjal but there are some points that disturb me :

-The leather of the scabbard looks to be really recent, and artificialy aged, hard to be sure only based on photo but is this genuine leather ?

-The blade looks to had been hardly cleaned with some electric tool, maybe a circular sander, looks to be confirm by the "1/4 circles " scars of the blade.

Best regards

JoeCanada42 · 22nd April 2021, 05:00 AM

there are many lower grades I've seen, mine does have silver, its my first sword with precious metals, I thought the blade mark might also make it more significant or interesting.
The scabbard does appear to be real leather, its smells old like antique.
I have seen many comparable apparently old examples with leather in just as good a condition, maybe it was just well maintained? maybe it way restored at one point. the scabbard fittings, do match the handle. and if it was restored it was probably also awhile ago as the handles bottom pin is apparently a little loose as there is a very slight wiggle to the two pieces of Horn.
The blade being cleaned never crossed my mind, I cant afford to be that picky. doesn't look too harsh.. probably was cleaned a long time ago.
maybe the blade is real old?
I did think maybe there is a small chance under all this patina , that its wootz?

mariusgmioc · 22nd April 2021, 02:25 PM

A significant portion of kindjals have silver fittings and even scabbards.

The fact a kindjal has some tiny amount of silver in it, doesn't make it a higher grade,
nor does the presence of leather in the scabbard... unless it is a modern product.

A much more relvant criteria would be the quality of the blade. Now what is a good quality blade, this is a long discussion.
The presence of the maker's mark definitely contributes towards a better quality, but so does the presence of the fullers.
Making fullers in a steel blade is a labour-intensive process and it adds to the value of the blade.

However, in this case I believe the markings on the blade are not the makers' mark but some spurious decorations.

Another important criteria for the quality of a blade is its condition. A heavily rusted blade is considered to be of lower quality. But so is a blade that was excessively cleaned.

The quality of the fittings is another long topic. While the materials used in the fittings do carry some weight, it is much more important the quality of workmanship.

Just browse this site and you will find many examples of kindjals in various qualities. Then, you can compare them to yours and form your own, but more educated opinion.

JoeCanada42 · 22nd April 2021, 06:40 PM

Mariusgmioc ,thanks, I am still researching kindjals on this forum, and I can see that you have shared a lot and know a lot. I never said mine is higher quality because of the silver, I guess as far as kindjals go mine does lack embellishment, but in comparison to other apparently Caucasus/ Georgian 19c examples I think its a fair example, despite the cleaning its in good functioning condition.
I agree in general with what you said. but while a bad cleaning or rust may effect appeal, value, and perhaps integrity, it can be remedied to an extent, and for my collecting purposes, it doesn't stop the antique from being old which is the biggest quality appeal to me. I also understand why in general fullers are adding value, but maybe for a short sword the fullers weren't necessary or common at the time or with the maker. I dont know yet.., I still would like to know what these marks on the kindjal are called? and if there was a reason the mark would sometimes appear in double. other than decoration.
I could venture to polish the blade, and then learn to etch it, would a Damascus pattern likely be underneath? or maybe a 1% chance wootz?

mariusgmioc · 22nd April 2021, 09:38 PM

There is always some chance to be wootz or pattern welded. Now whether it is 1% or 0.002735%, I don't know.

Regarding the mark on the blade, I have a Georgian one with the same marking, and pattern welded blade.

ariel · 23rd April 2021, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeCanada42

I could venture to polish the blade, and then learn to etch it, would a Damascus pattern likely be underneath? or maybe a 1% chance wootz?

Don’t bother. Caucasian blades are almost never damascus: too expensive and time consuming. The only exception where pattern - welding was relatively frequent are kindjals coming from Guria. And this is not a Gurian one.
And wootz .... forget about it. The last master who (rarely) forged wootz blades from Indian ingots was Geurk Elizarov , and you kindjal is somewhere from late 19th century up to the WW2. They never made their own wootz ingots.

JoeCanada42 · 23rd April 2021, 02:42 AM

I wont clean it, it shows the age and I like that.
thanks for the info concerning the chances of it of it though.
Mariusgmoic that does look like the same mark. surely there is info about it somewhere but I haven't fount it yet.
I collected a few versions, as someone who doesn't know yet i could guess it resembles a byzantine rooftop, a tureen or a poppy flower.

21st April 2021, 08:03 PM	#1
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	Kindjal to share, help please, markings, age, location, thanks Recently Arrived this Morning, I got it from eBay, I think I got real lucky on this one. The seller recently sold a a couple sabers before this ,they were amazing, and I was hoping they would show up on the forum. If its alright I would share a couple photos of the swords. There was also post cards and photos sold, I would share a few that were cool. if that's allowed I Have only done a little research into Kindjals, if people could help me find out the origin, and age, The blade marking??? I don't think this was a military issue?, I almost see what could be a marking of a signature, the blade is 2 inches wide, and 15 inches long, 21 inches total with handle. Its very sharp. Is this technically a short sword? Attached Images Last edited by JoeCanada42; 21st April 2021 at 08:20 PM.

21st April 2021, 08:04 PM	#2
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	more photos Attached Images

21st April 2021, 08:05 PM	#3
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	last of photos Attached Images

22nd April 2021, 02:25 PM	#9
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	A significant portion of kindjals have silver fittings and even scabbards. The fact a kindjal has some tiny amount of silver in it, doesn't make it a higher grade, nor does the presence of leather in the scabbard... unless it is a modern product. A much more relvant criteria would be the quality of the blade. Now what is a good quality blade, this is a long discussion. The presence of the maker's mark definitely contributes towards a better quality, but so does the presence of the fullers. Making fullers in a steel blade is a labour-intensive process and it adds to the value of the blade. However, in this case I believe the markings on the blade are not the makers' mark but some spurious decorations. Another important criteria for the quality of a blade is its condition. A heavily rusted blade is considered to be of lower quality. But so is a blade that was excessively cleaned. The quality of the fittings is another long topic. While the materials used in the fittings do carry some weight, it is much more important the quality of workmanship. Just browse this site and you will find many examples of kindjals in various qualities. Then, you can compare them to yours and form your own, but more educated opinion. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 22nd April 2021 at 02:50 PM.

22nd April 2021, 09:38 PM	#11
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	There is always some chance to be wootz or pattern welded. Now whether it is 1% or 0.002735%, I don't know. Regarding the mark on the blade, I have a Georgian one with the same marking, and pattern welded blade. Attached Images

21st April 2021, 08:26 PM	#4
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 876	Hello, welcome to the kindjal club ! I think it's a caucase/ Russian cossack kindjal with silver tip and parts, hilt seems made of horn, end of 19th century ? I've seen these marks on blades but don't remember were they come from, sure specialists will help you !

21st April 2021, 08:43 PM	#5
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	Thanks, its my First Kindjal, Got to say its bigger then I expected very formidable, seems to big to call a dagger.

21st April 2021, 08:57 PM	#6
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Georgian would be my guess, but rather low grade.

21st April 2021, 09:06 PM	#7
CNK1 Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: France Posts: 41	Good evening, This is for sure a nice Kindjal but there are some points that disturb me : -The leather of the scabbard looks to be really recent, and artificialy aged, hard to be sure only based on photo but is this genuine leather ? -The blade looks to had been hardly cleaned with some electric tool, maybe a circular sander, looks to be confirm by the "1/4 circles " scars of the blade. Best regards

22nd April 2021, 05:00 AM	#8
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	there are many lower grades I've seen, mine does have silver, its my first sword with precious metals, I thought the blade mark might also make it more significant or interesting. The scabbard does appear to be real leather, its smells old like antique. I have seen many comparable apparently old examples with leather in just as good a condition, maybe it was just well maintained? maybe it way restored at one point. the scabbard fittings, do match the handle. and if it was restored it was probably also awhile ago as the handles bottom pin is apparently a little loose as there is a very slight wiggle to the two pieces of Horn. The blade being cleaned never crossed my mind, I cant afford to be that picky. doesn't look too harsh.. probably was cleaned a long time ago. maybe the blade is real old? I did think maybe there is a small chance under all this patina , that its wootz?

22nd April 2021, 06:40 PM	#10
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	Mariusgmioc ,thanks, I am still researching kindjals on this forum, and I can see that you have shared a lot and know a lot. I never said mine is higher quality because of the silver, I guess as far as kindjals go mine does lack embellishment, but in comparison to other apparently Caucasus/ Georgian 19c examples I think its a fair example, despite the cleaning its in good functioning condition. I agree in general with what you said. but while a bad cleaning or rust may effect appeal, value, and perhaps integrity, it can be remedied to an extent, and for my collecting purposes, it doesn't stop the antique from being old which is the biggest quality appeal to me. I also understand why in general fullers are adding value, but maybe for a short sword the fullers weren't necessary or common at the time or with the maker. I dont know yet.., I still would like to know what these marks on the kindjal are called? and if there was a reason the mark would sometimes appear in double. other than decoration. I could venture to polish the blade, and then learn to etch it, would a Damascus pattern likely be underneath? or maybe a 1% chance wootz?

23rd April 2021, 02:42 AM	#13
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	I wont clean it, it shows the age and I like that. thanks for the info concerning the chances of it of it though. Mariusgmoic that does look like the same mark. surely there is info about it somewhere but I haven't fount it yet. I collected a few versions, as someone who doesn't know yet i could guess it resembles a byzantine rooftop, a tureen or a poppy flower. Attached Images