Early Dagger, origin possibly Scottish

Cathey · 16th March 2013, 04:51 AM

This dagger appears to have significant age, with the wooden grip feeling very warn to the touch. The grip appears to have lost a cap of some description and some of the wood near the blade. The makers mark on the 10” blade is very clear and distinct probably European although I am yet to narrow this down. in the Scottish Dirk by James D Forman page 9 Illustration 6 there is a similar dagger described as a transitional dagger dungeon style hilt suggestive of early dirks. One thing that I hard to see in our photos’ is that the wood has decoration in the form of small circles stamped into it. I find this item quite puzzling but lovely to hold, any thought on what it actually is and who the maker mark can be attributed to.

Cheers Cathey and Rex.

colin henshaw · 17th March 2013, 02:20 PM

Hi

Not my field at all, but I thought I would comment since no one else has. The blade form and profile is certainly reminiscent of Scottish dirks, and the handle a bit like that to be found on earlier ballock daggers. The blade seems in good condition. What is that material stuck to the metal in front of the wood - has the hilt pulled back a bit ?

Whatever, a nice piece and I hope someone more knowledgeable can give their views.

Jim McDougall · 17th March 2013, 07:32 PM

While awaiting hopefully replies from others with specific knowledge on this field, I thought I would respond as well with some thoughts.

It is important to note that the term 'dungeon' is of course referring to the word 'dudgeon', the type of wood often used on these early dirk hilts usually of 16th and 17th century. These developed from the 'ballock' daggers which usually were haunched, leading to this rathy baudy anatomical association (in Victorian times the term was revised to 'kidney' dagger to relieve the tensions of prudish Victorians by reference to the lobed organ). It is known that the term 'dudgeon' was extant far earlier as it is mentioned in cutlers ordinances of 1379-80 referring to the use of 'digeon' or boxwood, which was typically pale in color and often dyed. The use of the wood is further mentioned in "Gerards Herbal" (1597). The word dudgeon has become connotated with anger, resentment and probably linked to the use of these daggers in such instances as may be expected.

The hilt is of course variant from most ballock or early Scottish dirks though it does have a cuff or collar at the base of the hilt, but no evidence of haunches or lobes. It would appear that the incised openings were for the placement of insets, much as the type of decorative motif on Scottish dirks and knives which were of course quite personally embellished often.
The placement of the mark is consistant with the quadrant of the blade typically seen on European knives and cutlery, and while it has the character of many marks with spurred and accented geometric images, none are directly corresponding (I checked "Knives and Scabbards" , 1987, Cowgill, DeNeergaard and Griffiths, and Wallace Collection, Mann, 1962, "Scottish Swords and Dirks" John Wallace, 1970).
Makers marks were however seldom exactly reproduced as the stamp became worn and the images degenerated, as well as of course others trying to copy them. In the first reference there are only two marks of 119 which might be from the same stamp.

While I cannot say for sure what the exact character of this knife or dirk might be, it does appear to be within the range of these early daggers and earlier dirks, quite possibly Scottish and likely border regions. The best hope for the mark is looking for a close match in the configuration in catalogs and other references.

Jim McDougall · 21st March 2013, 04:04 PM

Just noticed 231 hits now, at least somebody is reading this. Unfortunate that no knowledgable entries have come in

I would note that I missed concurring with Colin...it is a nice piece .

M ELEY · 22nd March 2013, 03:35 AM

I have been following the thread with interest, but unfortunately have no knowledge in this area. It does resemble the earlier ballock type, as noted. Jim's excellent comments are the most thorough so far. I'm wondering what the type of wood the hilt material is made from and if it could tell us anything? What was the most common type of wood used for Scottish dirks?
Jim, you mention that the placement of the mark is consistent with those found on cutlery of the period. Could this have been a simple tool knife or from a trouse versus an actual fighter?

Cathey · 23rd March 2013, 03:53 AM

Hi guys

Sorry I have been so slow to respond, however work interferes with my research time. I have attached the page from The Scottish Dirk by James D Foreman featuring a similar dirk in better condition (without the top and bottom of the hilt damage). He described the wood as root wood whatever that is. Any more thoughts appreciated.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

16th March 2013, 04:51 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	Early Dagger, origin possibly Scottish This dagger appears to have significant age, with the wooden grip feeling very warn to the touch. The grip appears to have lost a cap of some description and some of the wood near the blade. The makers mark on the 10” blade is very clear and distinct probably European although I am yet to narrow this down. in the Scottish Dirk by James D Forman page 9 Illustration 6 there is a similar dagger described as a transitional dagger dungeon style hilt suggestive of early dirks. One thing that I hard to see in our photos’ is that the wood has decoration in the form of small circles stamped into it. I find this item quite puzzling but lovely to hold, any thought on what it actually is and who the maker mark can be attributed to. Cheers Cathey and Rex. Attached Images

17th March 2013, 07:32 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	While awaiting hopefully replies from others with specific knowledge on this field, I thought I would respond as well with some thoughts. It is important to note that the term 'dungeon' is of course referring to the word 'dudgeon', the type of wood often used on these early dirk hilts usually of 16th and 17th century. These developed from the 'ballock' daggers which usually were haunched, leading to this rathy baudy anatomical association (in Victorian times the term was revised to 'kidney' dagger to relieve the tensions of prudish Victorians by reference to the lobed organ). It is known that the term 'dudgeon' was extant far earlier as it is mentioned in cutlers ordinances of 1379-80 referring to the use of 'digeon' or boxwood, which was typically pale in color and often dyed. The use of the wood is further mentioned in "Gerards Herbal" (1597). The word dudgeon has become connotated with anger, resentment and probably linked to the use of these daggers in such instances as may be expected. The hilt is of course variant from most ballock or early Scottish dirks though it does have a cuff or collar at the base of the hilt, but no evidence of haunches or lobes. It would appear that the incised openings were for the placement of insets, much as the type of decorative motif on Scottish dirks and knives which were of course quite personally embellished often. The placement of the mark is consistant with the quadrant of the blade typically seen on European knives and cutlery, and while it has the character of many marks with spurred and accented geometric images, none are directly corresponding (I checked "Knives and Scabbards" , 1987, Cowgill, DeNeergaard and Griffiths, and Wallace Collection, Mann, 1962, "Scottish Swords and Dirks" John Wallace, 1970). Makers marks were however seldom exactly reproduced as the stamp became worn and the images degenerated, as well as of course others trying to copy them. In the first reference there are only two marks of 119 which might be from the same stamp. While I cannot say for sure what the exact character of this knife or dirk might be, it does appear to be within the range of these early daggers and earlier dirks, quite possibly Scottish and likely border regions. The best hope for the mark is looking for a close match in the configuration in catalogs and other references. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 17th March 2013 at 09:17 PM.

23rd March 2013, 03:53 AM	#6
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	Early Dirk Hi guys Sorry I have been so slow to respond, however work interferes with my research time. I have attached the page from The Scottish Dirk by James D Foreman featuring a similar dirk in better condition (without the top and bottom of the hilt damage). He described the wood as root wood whatever that is. Any more thoughts appreciated. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

17th March 2013, 02:20 PM	#2
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Not my field at all, but I thought I would comment since no one else has. The blade form and profile is certainly reminiscent of Scottish dirks, and the handle a bit like that to be found on earlier ballock daggers. The blade seems in good condition. What is that material stuck to the metal in front of the wood - has the hilt pulled back a bit ? Whatever, a nice piece and I hope someone more knowledgeable can give their views.

21st March 2013, 04:04 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Just noticed 231 hits now, at least somebody is reading this. Unfortunate that no knowledgable entries have come in I would note that I missed concurring with Colin...it is a nice piece .

22nd March 2013, 03:35 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	I have been following the thread with interest, but unfortunately have no knowledge in this area. It does resemble the earlier ballock type, as noted. Jim's excellent comments are the most thorough so far. I'm wondering what the type of wood the hilt material is made from and if it could tell us anything? What was the most common type of wood used for Scottish dirks? Jim, you mention that the placement of the mark is consistent with those found on cutlery of the period. Could this have been a simple tool knife or from a trouse versus an actual fighter?