Keris quality?

NotoriousCal · 30th December 2016, 05:30 PM

Hello group and I hope to find you in good spirits. I'm new in the search for quality keris. In my resent research I've come across keris that I think are pour quality. By this I mean keris the pour pamor quality. I've come across different pamor styles that have been rusted and or scratched, erosion ect.

I've also seen the same pamor on different keris. On one keris the pamor can be seen and on the other pamor doesn't come through as well as the other. Things like rust, erosion, scratches, dings ect are because of poor upkeeping.

So my question is.because something like poor upkeeping, does this mean the keris is no good? Or is this the case of one man's garbage being anothers treasure?
My second question is. Because a pamor is brilliant on one keris and on the other keris of the same type faded.

Do this mean the keris was poorly executed or has lesser value than the pamor that is visible? Lastly, I'm looking for dealer with a good reputation. Does anyone know any others, other than Alan Maisey? Not that Alan Maisey is bad. Lol

Alan Maisey has been very patient and has help me a great deal. However I don't think Alan is selling any keris at the moment.

Thank you for your responses
Peace

David · 30th December 2016, 09:17 PM

Cal, i debated whether to not to pass this post, mostly because of the last part of it. Members should feel free to message Cal is they have any dealer suggestions for him, but in the interest in keeping our conversations here commercial free i will delete any such discussions in public space.
Regarding your other questions, the answers are not so cut and dry and every example will need to be examined on an individual basis.
The brightness of pamor is not an indication of quality, but rather the materials used for the pamor material. High nickel quantities in pamor can make for a higher contrast pamor pattern which many do find desirable, but high quality keris have been produced for centuries with much lower contrast materials as well as no pamor pattern at all (kelengan). Brightness of pamor may also depend upon whether or not the keris is in good stain and a blade which shows very little pamor pattern may in fact look completely different once washed and treated with warangan. Rust can be removed from uncared for blades and the degree to which the rust has caused permanent loss to the material and damage to the integrity of the blade can indeed affect its value. But the bright and shiny keris is not always the best keris.

kai · 31st December 2016, 06:25 AM

Hello Cal,

Be prepared for an uphill battle or two!

Certainly some types of pamor are more difficult to forge than others - thus, they come with somewhat higher esteem. However, they are also much more easy to mess up during forging work: All other things being equal, a keris with badly done difficult pamor is much inferior to a keris with perfectly executed "lesser" pamor!

Moreover, even quality pamor is more like the icing on a cake: the garap of the blade is much more important. Quality (as judged by the originating cultures) may vary from island to island; it will also vary from quality as perceived by international enthusiasts; again different from the taste of tribal art aficionados, much less the general collecting public...

Do as much reading as you can first! Here are some classic threads:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3938
For sure, this forum provides more info than any book published in English. So make sure to review all threads (don't forget the older forum!) sooner or later. This will answer some of your questions and spawn lots of new ones...

Scrutinise as many keris as possible: Don't focus on recent pieces of questionable quality (e. g. the bulk of ePray offers) and make a special point to look into older pieces (musea, etc.) but also note that subpar pieces have always been produced or rather that highest quality has always been the exception rather than the norm! Pics can help as a poor substitute for the real thing but keep in mind that they can also be very misleading...

Personally handle as many keris as possible!

While there are certainly knowledgable folks in the US, I don't know of any dealer with specialised keris knowledge out there. Even if there were any, it would still boil down to caveat emptor! Your best bet is probably to team up with a forum member and to discuss future purchases via email. The more you invest into your own education though, the more costly errors you may be able to avoid!

Regards,
Kai

30th December 2016, 05:30 PM	#1
NotoriousCal Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 24	Keris quality? Hello group and I hope to find you in good spirits. I'm new in the search for quality keris. In my resent research I've come across keris that I think are pour quality. By this I mean keris the pour pamor quality. I've come across different pamor styles that have been rusted and or scratched, erosion ect. I've also seen the same pamor on different keris. On one keris the pamor can be seen and on the other pamor doesn't come through as well as the other. Things like rust, erosion, scratches, dings ect are because of poor upkeeping. So my question is.because something like poor upkeeping, does this mean the keris is no good? Or is this the case of one man's garbage being anothers treasure? My second question is. Because a pamor is brilliant on one keris and on the other keris of the same type faded. Do this mean the keris was poorly executed or has lesser value than the pamor that is visible? Lastly, I'm looking for dealer with a good reputation. Does anyone know any others, other than Alan Maisey? Not that Alan Maisey is bad. Lol Alan Maisey has been very patient and has help me a great deal. However I don't think Alan is selling any keris at the moment. Thank you for your responses Peace

30th December 2016, 09:17 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Cal, i debated whether to not to pass this post, mostly because of the last part of it. Members should feel free to message Cal is they have any dealer suggestions for him, but in the interest in keeping our conversations here commercial free i will delete any such discussions in public space. Regarding your other questions, the answers are not so cut and dry and every example will need to be examined on an individual basis. The brightness of pamor is not an indication of quality, but rather the materials used for the pamor material. High nickel quantities in pamor can make for a higher contrast pamor pattern which many do find desirable, but high quality keris have been produced for centuries with much lower contrast materials as well as no pamor pattern at all (kelengan). Brightness of pamor may also depend upon whether or not the keris is in good stain and a blade which shows very little pamor pattern may in fact look completely different once washed and treated with warangan. Rust can be removed from uncared for blades and the degree to which the rust has caused permanent loss to the material and damage to the integrity of the blade can indeed affect its value. But the bright and shiny keris is not always the best keris.

31st December 2016, 06:25 AM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Cal, Be prepared for an uphill battle or two! Certainly some types of pamor are more difficult to forge than others - thus, they come with somewhat higher esteem. However, they are also much more easy to mess up during forging work: All other things being equal, a keris with badly done difficult pamor is much inferior to a keris with perfectly executed "lesser" pamor! Moreover, even quality pamor is more like the icing on a cake: the garap of the blade is much more important. Quality (as judged by the originating cultures) may vary from island to island; it will also vary from quality as perceived by international enthusiasts; again different from the taste of tribal art aficionados, much less the general collecting public... Do as much reading as you can first! Here are some classic threads: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3938 For sure, this forum provides more info than any book published in English. So make sure to review all threads (don't forget the older forum!) sooner or later. This will answer some of your questions and spawn lots of new ones... Scrutinise as many keris as possible: Don't focus on recent pieces of questionable quality (e. g. the bulk of ePray offers) and make a special point to look into older pieces (musea, etc.) but also note that subpar pieces have always been produced or rather that highest quality has always been the exception rather than the norm! Pics can help as a poor substitute for the real thing but keep in mind that they can also be very misleading... Personally handle as many keris as possible! While there are certainly knowledgable folks in the US, I don't know of any dealer with specialised keris knowledge out there. Even if there were any, it would still boil down to caveat emptor! Your best bet is probably to team up with a forum member and to discuss future purchases via email. The more you invest into your own education though, the more costly errors you may be able to avoid! Regards, Kai