importing Keris to UK

[vinny]

Hi

I am intersted in puchasing a nice Keris on ebay. It is in Indonesia. I am in the UK. Does anyone know if I am likely to enter any problems with customs?

Any advice greatfully received.

Thanks
Vinny

[tom hyle]

Dunno specifically, but it can be a can of worms. I know coming into USA gifts are not taxed, but commercial goods can be taxed on the sale value, or as far as I know, whatever value the government wants to assign (and I hear that this can get real ugly).

[vinny]

Hi Tom

Thanks for the advice. My Brother bought some keris a few years ago in Kelantan, and put them in his cargo luggage. The vendor wrote him out a certificate stating that the items were Malay antiques, as she said he might get problems with them being confiscated as weapons. I think things are alot stricter now. I have had a look around at customs websites etc, and I think bladed items are generally frowned on. But if its a bonafide antique? I dunno either.

Regards
Vinny

[spiral]

Ive imported many antique kukri into the UK, as long as not Ivory there is no problem, with swords etc.

The post office/customs often use metal detectors & xray equipment & subterfuge may not be appreciated.

Tax & fees seem to vary massively.

Spiral

[vinny]

Hi Spiral

Thanks for the info. Very helpful.

Regards
Vinny

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Vinny,

I don’t know, so I can’t help you, other than advise you to have a look at the English Customs homepage. This ought to give you all the information you need.

Jens

[tom hyle]

Or at least every legal power or rule they might use . I know that in some US states (they're standardizing, but still there's a wild profusion of state and local laws over here) double edgedness is specifically a factor. AFAIK, though there's rarely any trouble about this, it is illegal to buy, import (from anywhere, United State, or not), and maybe possess, a double-edged blade in California and Massachusetts (though AFAIK enforcement is sporadic and selective); every place that sells such mail-order seems to have a warning about these two states and some won't even ship such to them. The mail seems to me to be significantly safer/less minded than luggage taken with, at least USA-wise. Also, I don't think you'll get in any worse trouble over an edged weapon in the mail than having it stolen or owing a tariff (in USA they're known to come knocking at your door over some pills or ivory), so I have often just sweated it until the thing came, then been glad when it does, but a friend who got hit ONCE with the taxes says they were more than the item is worth and swears "Never Again [source country deleted before it's repeated ]!"

[Jens Nordlunde]

Although most of the forumites, most probably, live in the States, there are some, living in Europe, which will soon have troubles - if they don't have it already. In Germany knives like katars are forbidden, and will most likely be confiscated if passing Germany, even if the destination is not Germany. Notice that a mail central for Europe is placed in Germany, and they decide what is sent on and what is confiscated/returned. Have a look here http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=50184
The Swiss rules can be found here, and they are to be changed http://internet.bap.admin.ch/ notice the rules for antic weapon. In Scandinavia a collectors licens from the police is needed to have a collection and to buy and sell, even antic weapons.

Andrew, would it be an idea that the rules in the different countries were put on the forum, and that they are updated when they are changed?

Jens

[tom hyle]

Oh, that would be such a great resource! A lot of work though. There are organizations analagous to the NRA, but dedicated to opposing anti knife or anti sword laws; perhaps one of them posts such information on a website, or perhaps even the NRA. Hmmm....when I'm up at night bored, maybe I'll check; now I've got (most of) the day off, and must/should do my errands and pay my bills This stuff does scare me, though; it really does; it's frightening and disturbing.....

[Henk]

Vinny,

It depends what kind of keris you are going to import. Also the delivery service from Indonesia is important. There is one service that has never problems at the customs, but I know from a friend of mine that customs in Indonesia can be very nasty. When a package is examined and the customs have the idea that it might be a national heirloom (and they think very fast it is)it is confiscicated and examined by a museum. Takes a lot of time and trouble and you have the change your keris is lost forever.

However you have a reasonable change that your package will arrive without trouble. A keris with gold, ivory or fossile molar give the most problems.

Good luck!!

[Jens Nordlunde]

Maybe Tom did misunderstand me, what I meant was, that someone from different countries should give links to the web sides in the country where the rules for im/exporting of weapons were mentioned. Should any translation me needed, I feel sure that someone will help.

Plus the very interesting thing, that the Germans think they can decide what can be sent to other countries than Germany – as they seem to be a central post terminal in Europe.

To my opinion the collectors have been sleeping, while the politicians have been at work – now when was that last seen?

Jens

[VVV]

Jens,

License for edged weapons is just for Denmark among the Scandinavian countries. In Sweden f.i. all blades except balisongs and stilettos are OK to import without a license. The problem is however that most air-mail is shipped via Kastrup, Denmark, and even if it's "transit" the local agent sometimes refuses to send blades to US through Denmark.

Michael

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Michael,

You may be right, but the point is, that the politicians are closing in on us. Rightfully or not, but they are.

The only way out that I can see is, that the different countries work together, to make a unity, which can/should put some pressure on the governments, that collectors should be left out from these bands they are starting. I do agree, that it will not be easy, but I do also think it will have to be done.

Strange that so few of the members have something to say about this - as it is of great importarnce.

Jens

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Andrew, would it be an idea that the rules in the different countries were put on the forum, and that they are updated when they are changed?

Jens

Hi Jens:

If someone were inclined to start such a thread, I'd be pleased to make it a sticky for reference purposes. Maintaining it, however, would be difficult. I'd propose to leave it open for the membership to add to it as things change.

Best,
Andrew

[LabanTayo]

'canos,
thats funny ian.
i guess i'm a flip'cano.
thanks for the customs tip. i'll be using it...

[Ian]

Originally Posted by LabanTayo

'canos,
thats funny ian.
i guess i'm a flip'cano.
thanks for the customs tip. i'll be using it...

Shelley:

Perhaps pinoy'cano.

Just make sure any documentation you have is legit.

Ian.

[vinny]

Hi Everyone

Thanking you all kindly for taking the time to respond and for all your advice. Very much appreciated. Very grateful.

Thanks and regards
Vinny

PS Capt Smash, good luck with yours!

[Mark]

Thread locked pending policy review. We currently have no guidelines regarding this subject, so we are considering whether we should have a policy regarding, or at least guidelines, for discussion of legal issues and their parameters and/or limits.

Something will be forthcoming soon.

Your friendly neighborhood Sider-Modharator

[Mark]

OK. I have re-opened the thread after editing certain posts and deleting others.

First, everyone should understand that this editing/deleting is no reflection on the poster. We had no policy or guidelines in place, so there was no offense or foul by anyone. Us mods just got thinking, and thought that the absense of a policy on this issue might be a problem, so we froze things to consider what to do, and this is the solution we arrived at.

So, here is a guideline for discussing laws, regulations and legal issues (drum-roll, please):

Discussion of laws, regulation and legal issues, such as those relating to the ownership of edged weapons, or their transportation, importation or exportation, on the open forum is fine (and very educational and helpful besides), so long as suggestions for ways to circumvent said laws or regulations, such as shipping and/or labeling strategies, are not brought into the discussion.

This is for the protection of the posters, because some governement bloke with too much time on his/her hands and a yen for strict enforcement of the law may decide that someone is instigating or aiding and abetting a crime by making such suggestions.

Discussions of your own experiences with customs, local possession laws, etc. is fine, again so long as you do not discuss "strategies" for circumventing or avoiding them (even if it is simply suggesting a careful choice of words that tends not to excite the attention of the authorities).

If there is interest in exchanging such "strategic" information, I suggest using private e-mails.

Finally, I tried to be consistent in the editing and deleting. No one should be affended, and if you notice something I missed, or think something should have remained, feel free to send me a PM and I will check it.

[vinny]

Moderators

Thankyou for spotting that, and making us aware. I would never deliberately use deceptive or misleading descriptions though. I was just wondering if anyone had successfully bought something over e-bay and it shipped fine, or if there were tails of things disappearing at customs.

But thanks again, for looking after us!

Regards
Vinny

[Mark]

I have heard one real horror story about customs, from Manoucher. He had an antique jambya (I believe) sent into Germany and it was confiscated by customs because it did not have a certification as a bona fide antique. I believe the issue was more the handle material than the knife itself. He ended up in a Catch-22 situation where German customs would not release th item without certification, would not accept after-the-fact certification from either the seller or an outside expert, and would not permit the item to be sent back to the seller.

This is an example of strict adherence to the law. CITES requires that certification accompany the piece, and prohibits import, export, or transport of covered items. So, without accompanying papers customs would not allow it out of their control, and without papers they would not permit it to be shipped out of the country. I never heard whether or not he managed to work it out, but my guess is that the jambya is sitting in a warehouse somewhere in Franfurt.

I am in the process of obtaining import/export permits for some ivory handles pieces, and I will let everyone know how it goes and what wsa sufficient supporting evidence, at least for the U.S. authorities.

[Mick]

Mark

I see that you have upgraded your old CITES statement in the original forum section. You might reference this in the new topic. Elephant ivory is handled (permits) by the U.S.Fish and Wildlife Service, but I think marine ivory is under NOAA. This shows that the system is more screwed up in the U.S. than you can imagine. I believe that other countries in which the original species does not exist (especially second and third world countries) are hard put to figure a permitting system out. I mean that if the article is found in one of these countries how would you get a permit to export the item. You would probably just get a refusal as this is the easiest and safest answer.

I looked up this material when your first article was put on the forum and (although I can’t remember where I found the information or find it again right now) the act applies to any portion of one of the referenced animals. This means that the old elephant’s foot umbrella stand that your grandfather had in the hallway also falls under the act. If you sell this thing at a garage sale for a couple of bucks you are also liable.

[Mark]

Absolutely right on all counts. Also, the U.S. Customs service has their toes in it as well, since they are the ones who are often checking incoming and outgoing shipments and documentation.

One interesting twist to CITES in the U.S. (I really need to write a better article on this -- after I get my permits approved, promise), you can only import/export through specific ports of entry, of which there are only about eight. This is even for air shipments as I understand it. You can get a waiver to use another port, but you have to show financial hardship or hardship on what is being shipped (like Baby Jumbo would suffer too much being shipped from Houston to Baltimore to Berlin than he would direct Houston-Berlin). The laws and regulations are really made for shipping live animals or raw material, rather than smaller items like sword handles. Still, there it is.

[Kiai Carita]

Vinny, I go to and fro Indonesia and the UK and always bring at least one keris with me but not in my hand luggage. Sometimes I remember to explain beforehand that I have my pusaka but sometimes I forget but never have I had a problem with customs. I take the textile padding out of the hilt and wrap the whole blade in a respectful and perfumed bag so that the if one grabs the handle it will come off without the blade. I think this helps the customs people not imagining violence in assosciation with the keris. The keris is never intended to be a weapon rather it is a prayer and a symbol of God and the higher self of the owner. Further away from Java the keris developed more as a weapon but in Java most keris used to kill became cursed kerises. You should be able to bring the keris in via FedEx of UPS or some other shipping company. They know all the rules and regulations of importing anything.

Salam keris
Kiai Carita

[vinny]

Pak Kiai

Thanks for the info. I was thinking about postage. I do not think I will be able to get over this year, but hopefully next year. I like your tip on freeing up the Ukiran. Will bear that in mind when I next travel.

Fully appreciate everything else you said.

Regards
Vinny