Indian 'Main Gauche' ???

[katana]

Hi,
This recently finished on eBay.
A cut down sword or an unusual marriage, a Khanda hilt with a leaf shaped short blade.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=018

The rounded tip would not make a good stabbing weapon, the tip heavy blade looks better suited to slashing, but really is a little short. One possible use I can see, if this is genuine and not a ‘fantasy piece’ is that it would make a good ‘main gauche’ ….possibly for use with Rapier bladed Firangi ….like this one ..
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5577

Are there any other examples of this type ? Any other suggestions ? Thank you

Kind Regards David

[Valjhun]

It seems like a composite piece to me.

[Jim McDougall]

Now thats unusual David! I cannot say I've ever seen a khanda hilt in a dagger type configuration like this. It would indeed be tempting to think of this interesting example having been fashioned as the companion to the rapier bladed firangi previously discussed and used as a 'main gauche'.

While it seems it has been found that the Mahrattas were of course in certain degree influenced or at least impressed by Portuguese fashion and swordsmanship, I am not sure that they ever really adopted fencing technique to that level. It would be interesting to discover more on that. It would not be infeasible to imagine a Mahratta merchant or official imitating such European fashion.

A sword hilt fashioned into a knife seems to have been a one off occurence in numbers of cases. I have seen smallswords fashioned into knives this way as well as regulation military swords, usually left hilted as originally and the blade simply honed into knife shape. I think one of the most unusual instances I can think of were the M1913 Patton swords with huge steel hilts being made into combat knifes in WWII. Obviously, these examples have nothing to do with the knife we are discussing, but simply noted to illustrate instances using the concept.

Most interesting piece, and excellent example to review. It is not uncommon to refashion broken or damaged weapons considering thier value, and the concept obviously not isolated to certain periods or cultures.

The blade on this piece is intriguing as it has the distinct shape and central ridge reminding me of earlier Maasai seme' blades. I have often wondered if there could be any connection between those and earlier khanda blades. The trade between coastal western India and east Africa is of course well known, but there was notable presence of Indian workers in these regions of Africa during 19th century colonial presence. I recall once speaking with a lady who was clearly of Indian ancestry and being surprised when she told me she was from Kenya. She noted her family had been there for generations and that many Indian workers went there during those times.

Thank you for posting this David!

All the best,
Jim

[katana]

Hi Valjhan,
could be a composite, but I'm not so sure. If it is, I believe that it was 'compiled' for a purpose.

Hi Jim ,
nice to hear from you. The hilt on this 'dagger' is very interesting notice the crossguard with the large finials mounted on the 'shell' guard'....double re-inforcement....that would not be necessary on a dagger. The blade is heavily tapered to the hilt....these two factors strongly suggest that this is some sort of 'parrying weapon'.

The blade would deflect (guide) an opponents blade towards the guard(s) the large finials preventing the blade 'sliding' off and around the 'shell' guard. The strength of the 'doubled up' guard would only make sense if it was known that this area would receive 'alot of attention'.

I have never seen a hilt like it before

Kind Regards David

[ariel]

Isn't this type of handle suggestive of S. Indian origin?
Also, I have a feeling it used to have quillons.
Remake?

[Andrew]

As always, it's difficult to speak with any certainty from pics on the 'net, but I highly doubt that blade is original to the hilt.

[Rick]

What I see here is a spear blade with the base and tang ground away and reshaped to a fat thick point .
The 'original' point of the spear is mounted in the hilt and the reshaped base is now the busniess end .

Married piece IMO .
Just saying ......

[katana]

Thank you all for your input . I feel it is a married piece, but feel that the marriage was for a 'function'. To me, it seems unlikely that this piece was assembled to 'deceive', more 'value' would be gained with the fitment of a 'longer', more asthetic looking blade. The piece in question is abit of an 'oddball' and have not found its equal anywhere.

The use of the small Dhal was very common, and many sword techniques were learnt in conjunction with the Dhal. It is not unlikely that some warriors could have substuted the small shield for a 'short' sword. Two sworded martial arts are not uncommon in Asia, the abillity to use 'attack' as a form of defence and the blades shortness for close quarter combat ...is, I feel...quite possible.

Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

Well thought out assessment David! and I am inclined to agree, this was definitely put together to be used. I'm still curious about the blade, and the distinct raised central ridge reminds me of an earlier native khanda blade that has been ground down to fit the much smaller opening in the hilt. This reminds me of the rapier blade khandas.

The idea of a spear blade that Rick suggested seems plausible also, and again the section recalls the Maasai spear.

All the best,
Jim

[Rick]

I think we might want to consider whether or not the hilt configuration would allow proper wrist movement for use as a main gauche .

IIRC in another thread we discussed the limiting of certain movements by the disc pommel .

[katana]

Hi Jim,
thank you for your comments Although, I feel it is easier just to say its a 'married piece', I still feel that this particular 'dagger' could be 'legitimate' and it would be a shame to ignore this 'possiblity'. I had hoped similar examples might be known. If this item is 'unique' there is little chance of proving whether this was a historical compilation or a 'made up' piece for re-sale. I sometimes wonder, whether sometimes ...we are too quick to denounce a particular weapon because it doesn't 'fit' into a 'known category'. I also wondered whether the blade with its Khanda shape had any significance...and I do agree that Rick's suggestion of a spearhead is a good possibility

Hi Rick ,
I am inclined to agree that the disc pommel would limit wrist movement, perhaps less so for an Indian warrior if the 'smaller hand theory' is correct. I did / do not think that the European style of sword use would have been adopted ... I think likely 'adapted'. I used the term 'main gauche' as a sort of European equivalent...but the technique of use, I believe, would be different. I am working on the assumption that this was made for a particular 'function' ....and it seems to 'fit the bill' as some sort of parrying 'sword', although, of course, there are other possible uses.

Kind Regards David

[ward]

when it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. This is a marriage and not a good one. I have seen locals banging these items together for resale. If it had been done in period it would at least be more functional.

[Andrew]

I'm going to go further than I originally did with this. Not only do I think this blade is not original to the hilt, but I do not believe it was put together "for use".

The complete absence of similar weapons in the Indian tradition speaks volumes in this regard. Many shorter-bladed weapons were produced in India, but none with that type of hilt. There are reasons for this, not the least of which is the fact that hilt doesn't work well with a short blade. Use as a "main gauche" as David has suggested, would be much easier if the handle was one that permitted free movement of the wrist. Is it possible that someone did this to use it so? Certainly. However, Occam's Razor suggests otherwise.

[katana]

Originally Posted by ward

when it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. This is a marriage and not a good one. I have seen locals banging these items together for resale. If it had been done in period it would at least be more functional.

Hi Ward,
perhaps my enthusiasm sometimes gets the better of me. But, if the locals are banging these out, someone here must have seen one/bought one ?

Hi Andrew,
thanks for 'putting it gently', 'occum's razor' is certainly the way to go....with no other valid data.

Kind Regards David


A duck..... or rabbit ??

.

[ward]

You have to be kidding. They pick up anything that possibly can fit together and do. I have seen tulwars with bayonets shoved into them,indian helmets with spear spikes welded onto the tops, I beleive there was a post recently of some wooden spear/staffs made out of japanesse scabords. The rule usually is the least amount of work and costing the least is what is thrown together. In a lot of these countries eating is a lot more important than education and money is made at the moment not long term sitting for sale.

[katana]

Originally Posted by ward

You have to be kidding. They pick up anything that possibly can fit together and do. I have seen tulwars with bayonets shoved into them,indian helmets with spear spikes welded onto the tops, I beleive there was a post recently of some wooden spear/staffs made out of japanesse scabords. The rule usually is the least amount of work and costing the least is what is thrown together. In a lot of these countries eating is a lot more important than education and money is made at the moment not long term sitting for sale.

Thanks Ward for putting it into context, obviously tribal Africans are also in the same boat. With India's rapid industrial growth in recent years its easy to forget that for a section of the population there is still poverty.

Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

In the description of the industrious endeavors of the locals in India recycling various components, it would seem that such crafting would be reduced to mindless commercialism.

It seems in the weaponry of India, there are all manner of examples that elude comprehension of thier practical use, many with multiple blades, odd shapes, bizarre features and so on. Without deeper understanding of the traditional features and often symbolism of weapons associated with ceremonial events as well as martial applications, it is often difficult to transliterate functionality into western perspective.

This dagger is, as agreed, a married piece, using a sword hilt that would seem incongruous to the traditional means of using a dagger, however Davids suggestion (using the western term main gauche descriptively) would seem to indicate possible imitation of western swordsmanship. Although we know that as the Portuguese presence in Malabar became emplaced, thier weapons influenced the Indian forms markedly. The baskethilt developed, mounted as 'firangi' with foreign blades, and as we know, many were the narrow rapier blades. It does not seem too far fetched that the European fencing styles were in varying degree imitated, and use of the main gauche technique quite lilkely observed.

As always, my lack of martial arts knowledge being clear, it does seem that European fencing used the sword and buckler as well as the sword and main gauche, with both used in parrying blows or thrusts. With the rapier of course, the thrust parry involved the use of the main gauche to catch the opponents blade. A well protected guard for the hand would seem quite advisable, though in reality the unsharpened rapier edge was not really a threat to the hand.

Lat night I watched briefly a documentary on the martial arts technique of kalaripayattu in Kerala, India, in which opponents armed with sword and buckler engaged in extremely theatrical appearing combat. Much of this was quite choreographed with turns and leaps, which was described derisively by Sir Richard Burton whose views of native Indians was generally less than favorable in this regard. There were later shown some highly costumed and colorful traditional dance ceremonies using some of these techniques. I wonder if similar reeanactments might have also used the left hand dagger in imitation of the European fencing style?

I also found a very interesting entry in Pant (p.174) showing a dagger with very similar blade shape ( the leaf shape also termed 'gojivhagra' =tip of cow tongue, ibid.p.101). The dagger is known as a katar, katara (here Pant notes that the familiar transverse grip weapon is properly termed 'jemadhar) and the profile seems very similar to this piece. Obviously the full baskethilt does not concur with the hilt on this illustration, but the similarity seemed worthy of note.

Although it is clear that in India, among many spheres of culture, there is an industry fabricating all manner of souveniers for the thriving tourist industry. However it is important to remember that in many cultures, traditional weaponry is still an important element of costume. In other cases, there are votive pieces that are used in religious and traditional ceremonies as well. While these typically would not serve as functional combat weapons, they are typically representative of traditional and historic forms, in varying degree of course.

I guess all this simply means to me is that despite the relatively infallible quacking theory, it always seems worthwhile to keep an open mind Besides, the search for the obscure against the odds is part of the fun!

[Andrew]

I'm just trying to sharpen my "critical thinking" skills, Jim.

[Rick]

I'd be very interested in seeing pictures of this piece taken from different angles ; I'd like to see the blade edge on and more pictures of the attachment details .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Andrew

I'm just trying to sharpen my "critical thinking" skills, Jim.

Uh Oh!!! I hope I'm not sounding like that! Brings back unpleasant memories of belly dancing swords

[ward]

I may have come off harsher than I meant, but good antique weapons are expensive and I think it is important for people to look at what they have. Afghan and Indian pieces are notourious for mariages and done in period I do not have a problem with them. Late additions should be treated as what they are.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Uh Oh!!! I hope I'm not sounding like that! Brings back unpleasant memories of belly dancing swords

No, I was sounding like that.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi David,
The dagger has, of course, been put together, and as it is useless as it is, it is most likely not too long ago. The way the blade is formed, reminds me of the mid blade of some of the trisulas – maybe the maker had a trisula, and decided to make it into three daggers – who knows.

Jens

[katana]

Thank you very much Jim, for the additional information....excellent stuff

I am not convinced that this is an antique weapon.....but I am not convinced it isn't either. I have been trying to find a reference regarding Indian weapons and the use of experimental designs. From memory, it related to a battle where an number of fighters were equipped with 'prototype' weapons....the result was these were soon discarded (during battle) and 'known' weapons employed. The point of mentioning this is the fact that there were legit bladed weapons that , perhaps, were never recorded or, only mentioned in 'obscure' accounts ..that have not been discovered or were ignored by researchers.

The diversity of Indian weapons is well known, and although styles persisted (Tulwars, Khanda etc) blade configurations varied enormously to suit customs, function, armour,styling and personal requirements. I have always been amazed at the diversity of mace designs....many with Tulwar hilts. Most maces , in other cultures, are not hilted. I see that the resin fixing makes it quick and easy to attach a weapon but, why the hilt in the first place ? (but I digress ) It makes sense that experimental blades could quickly be fitted to a Tulwar hilt......if the experiment 'failed' ....some heat would quickly separate them, leaving a perfectly useable hilt. If married to a Khanda hilt it requires alot more effort and time. An argument I used to help prove the validity of my Rapier bladed Firangi.

After seeing this Khanda hilted 'dagger' , I thought it too bizarre for a fraudulent 'marriage' or even a bazaar piece . IMHO many 'potential customers' would be 'put off' by its seemingly lack of function greatly reducing its commercialism. In effect, its possible 'creation' to make money was flawed. That is why I began working on the assumption that this was genuine .... and saw one possible use was as a 'main gauche'.
Obviously pictures are not the best way to assess age etc but I would have liked to give this a 'in hand' examination.

Thank you all for your comments.

Kind Regards David