16TH Century stiletto dagger ?

[Cerjak]

16TH Century stiletto dagger ?
It has a cruciform blade
O.L. 29 cm ; blade L. 19 cm
Any comment on it would be welcome.
Best

Cerjak

[fernando]

Isn't the blade a shortened one ? The handle, some crude replacement ? .

[mariusgmioc]

Very confusing piece. I believe only the crossguard may come from a 16 c stiletto but the rest is of much more recent artisanal production.

Definitely not typical stiletto.

[drac2k]

Very interesting ; I think it may be more of a WW1 trench dagger;the blade looks to be made of a French Lebel bayonet.
Nice dagger !

[Cerjak]

Hi
Thank you for your answers and opinions
I should have post before some more pics and add more dimensions.
The blade width at hilt 1.5 cm /8mm so can’t be from a French Lebel bayonet who blade width is about 13 mm.The wood show real sign of age,and the guard and blade corrosion are homogenous so should be from the same period. Yes the grip is crudely made or I would say basic but again seems really old and definitively not a recent work. Also Similar blade geometry are found in 16-17TH stiletto dagger.
Let see what other members think about this small dagger..

[Cerjak]

similar quillons are found in the 16th to 17th dagger
see pictures

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

similar quillons are found in the 16th to 17th dagger
see pictures

Yes but, not the blades .

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by fernando

Yes but, not the blades .

Neither the hilts!

[cornelistromp]

it looks that this is a composite dagger, made from heterogeneous parts (not belonging together) in the second half of the 16th century, or a bit later.
The blade is a characteristic poniard dagger blade of the so called Bolognese type. North Italian. very stiff with a medial ridge on each side. see Picture
of a poniard in the MET 26.145.117

The style reminds me of the later ballock dagger construction with a steel ball/ballock guard without a pommel or pommel plate but with a small diamond shaped plate riveted at the end of the wooden grip. maybe you can post a Picture of it, Jean Luc ?

the whole thing looks coarsely constructed but was certainly usable.
in view of the blade and the guard is the origin probably north italian

best,
Jasper

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

The blade is a characteristic poniard dagger blade of the so called Bolognese type. North Italian. very stiff with a medial ridge on each side. see Picture
of a poniard in the MET 26.145.117

Hello Jasper,

I honestly fail to see too many similarities between the blade in question and the one in the photo you provided. The one in your example appears to be triangular with fullers on each face, while the one in the original posting is flat with two grooves/three ridges on each of the two sides.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

it looks that this is a composite dagger, made from heterogeneous parts (not belonging together) in the second half of the 16th century, or a bit later.
The blade is a characteristic poniard dagger blade of the so called Bolognese type. North Italian. very stiff with a medial ridge on each side. see Picture
of a poniard in the MET 26.145.117

The style reminds me of the later ballock dagger construction with a steel ball/ballock guard without a pommel or pommel plate but with a small diamond shaped plate riveted at the end of the wooden grip. maybe you can post a Picture of it, Jean Luc ?

the whole thing looks coarsely constructed but was certainly usable.
in view of the blade and the guard is the origin probably north italian

best,
Jasper

Hi Jasper,
I have expected your answer about this dagger.
I felt strongly that this blade was not a recent pattern and from the same period than the quillon but I could not find similar blade geometry in my data.
I feel more comfortable with your about opinion that it is a composite and probably made during the 17TH century with 16-17th century component .

Best
Jean-Luc

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello Jasper,

I honestly fail to see too many similarities between the blade in question and the one in the photo you provided. The one in your example appears to be triangular with fullers on each face, while the one in the original posting is flat with two grooves/three ridges on each of the two sides.

it is not triangular but a blade of Diamond section, both sides have a Long flattened ridge, running in the middle of the blade.
With this type of blades, often , at one side the ridge extends over the ricasso and at the other side the ridge stops before the ricasso, so that the thumb can be placed on a flat surface.

best,

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

it is not triangular but a blade of Diamond section, both sides have a Long flattened ridge, running in the middle of the blade.
With this type of blades, often , at one side the ridge extends over the ricasso and at the other side the ridge stops before the ricasso, so that the thumb can be placed on a flat surface.

best,

Thank you for the clarification!

Still, quite different from the one in the original posting.

Not that I am very knowledgeable, but I haven't seen that type of blade before.

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Thank you for the clarification!

I haven't seen that type of blade before.

Quote Oakeshott
"that you have never seen it before means nothing unless you have seen them all, those hundreds thousands of blades"


best,
jasper

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Quote Oakeshott
"that you have never seen it before means nothing unless you have seen them all, those hundreds thousands of blades"


best,
jasper

True indeed!

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

it looks that this is a composite dagger, made from heterogeneous parts (not belonging together) in the second half of the 16th century, or a bit later.
The blade is a characteristic poniard dagger blade of the so called Bolognese type. North Italian. very stiff with a medial ridge on each side. see Picture
of a poniard in the MET 26.145.117

The style reminds me of the later ballock dagger construction with a steel ball/ballock guard without a pommel or pommel plate but with a small diamond shaped plate riveted at the end of the wooden grip. maybe you can post a Picture of it, Jean Luc ?

the whole thing looks coarsely constructed but was certainly usable.
in view of the blade and the guard is the origin probably north italian

best,
Jasper

Hi JASPER

I found this dagger said to be Italian with same quillons and blade .
best

Jean-Luc

[Multumesc]

Nice dagger