Nimcha with markings

ariel · 29th March 2008, 02:18 AM

Just ended.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ayphotohosting
No argument here: pretty .
The seller states that the blade is local.
-What do we know about blade manufacture in Maghreb?
-What is on the stamp? A date? I seem to see numerals but can't make sense out of them.
-The blade sports Indian Ricasso. Was it usual on Maghrebi blades? I have several, but don't recall seeing this feature.

One side of the blade is stamped Zaoue. I found one ( two, as a matter of fact) in the discussion here:
http://www.mlagb.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/Y...=1116966424/10
But both were from Marseille, France.
France, Morocco.... Ze plot sickens!

kronckew · 29th March 2008, 08:48 AM

the oval 'with arabic inscription' looks more like a stylized wolf stamp with a couple of decorative flanker symbols at the bottom, at the top 'Zivia' which can mean 'wolf' in hebrew.

ariel · 29th March 2008, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

the oval 'with arabic inscription' looks more like a stylized wolf stamp with a couple of decorative flanker symbols at the bottom, at the top 'Zivia' which can mean 'wolf' in hebrew.

Nope. Wolf in Hebrew is Ze'ev. And it ain't no Hebrew letters.

kronckew · 29th March 2008, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Nope. Wolf in Hebrew is Ze'ev. And it ain't no Hebrew letters.

i came across a site that translated 'zivia' as 'wolf' or more properly the female version ie. she-wolf, can't find it now, others translate it as 'gazelle or deer' of god (sivyah, tzivia,tzivia - variants). anyway was clutching at straws, lettering didn't look overly arabic to me & the central blob looked animalistic.

maybe the mfg/stamper was not hebrew but liked the name. maybe it was transliterated during the attempts at romanizing yiddish in the 16th/17th centuries.

ah, found one:
Meaning of name: zivia

another which says deer or wolf:Linky

interesting that zeva is geek for sword per that link....

looks like it could mean either

or just about anything else too as it's a bit crudely stamped/cut. we need an arabic scholar's view at this.

ward · 30th March 2008, 04:33 AM

I have no idea what you all are talking about I see numbers = 181 (could be 1181= 18th century to lazy to do the math right now)and a few arabic characters A Haa and Raa. Worn caligraphy is hard to read but I do not see any hebrew or wolf head. Where do you see zivia? Arabic does not have a v symbol untill very recently

ariel · 30th March 2008, 04:53 AM

Fully agree.

Jim McDougall · 30th March 2008, 05:48 AM

This Moroccan sa'if (commonly termed nimcha) is indeed a very 'pretty' example, and seems to be mounted with what appears to be a French blade. While the sellers description insists this is not a European blade, noting that there were three manufacturing centers for swords in Morocco (apparantly from A.Tirri, "Islamic Weapons: Maghrib to Moghul", 2003, p.25; "..the primary manufacturing centers for swords were Meknes, Tetuan and Marrakech". The previous sentence is excluded, "...blades were mostly imported from Europe").

The blade is narrow and suggests French military sabres of 19th century, the blade has the forte block as often seen on military sabres of Europe, in which there is a built up section at the hilt prior to the sharpened edge,though the concept in its presence is essentially that of the 'Indian ricasso'.

The block letter stamp for ZAOUE, as Ariel has shown, apparantly denotes a French gunmaker of the 18th century,whose firm carried into the 19th. These stamped letters suggest likely that the firm was likely an outfitter or arms exporter as well by the 19th century, the block letter stamps similar to those used on arms late 18th into the 19th c. The oval cartouche on the opposite side of the blade suggests possibly armoury, or possibly one of the noted centers where the blade was received and mounted.

It seems that these Moroccan sa'if's are almost always mounted with European blades, and I would be interested to know of any examples mounted with locally made blades. While this blade is apparantly French, and not locally made, it by no means diminishes the obvious appeal or authenticity of this sword.

ze thought plickens!

All best regards,
Jim

kronckew · 30th March 2008, 09:44 AM

i may have just been seeing patterns in the worn stamp, but i was basically trying to say the same thing, that just because the vendor was told it was a local blade of arab mfg. - it may not be. zivia is also a location in corsica, france

still a very pretty sword that i wish i had.....

Jim McDougall · 30th March 2008, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

i may have just been seeing patterns in the worn stamp, but i was basically trying to say the same thing, that just because the vendor was told it was a local blade of arab mfg. - it may not be. zivia is also a location in corsica, france

still a very pretty sword that i wish i had.....

It does seem like trying to decipher many of these vague and worn stamps and markings on blades is a bit of a Rohrschach test !!

I could see the V and I's but couldn't make out the wolf (perhaps a modern French adaption of the 'Passau wolf'?). The wolf definitely has some intriguing background in French folklore, and it seems there may be a number of possible associations. It would be interesting to discover more on French sabre blades' markings.
This 'nimcha' really is an attractive piece, and clearly has some interesting history to share as well.

Best regards,
Jim

ward · 30th March 2008, 05:03 PM

ok your pic is upside down I have played with this a little and can you a little better info. date is 1817. I believe the rest is a name looks like Hazim or Huzane but I may be off on the spelling so do not quote me

Battara · 30th March 2008, 09:41 PM

Not to be totally silly (well, actually yeah) - how about a Hebrew dinosaur?

Dom · 31st March 2008, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

ok your pic is upside down I have played with this a little and can you a little better info. date is 1817. I believe the rest is a name looks like Hazim or Huzane but I may be off on the spelling so do not quote me

yes ... picture was in opposite ...
as well as too many here, problem for the non arabic reader

agree with you for the date 1817
but for the name, because, it's a name, "Hassan" ??

à +

Dom

ward · 31st March 2008, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

yes ... picture was in opposite ...
as well as too many here, problem for the non arabic reader

agree with you for the date 1817
but for the name, because, it's a name, "Hassan" ??

à +

Dom

The problem is I am guessing on the lettering it is not that clear. Hassan is not spelled like what I can see in the script. The tamabutra at end is throwing me along with the zaa. That may acturally just be a raa hard to tell.

29th March 2008, 02:18 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Nimcha with markings Just ended. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ayphotohosting No argument here: pretty . The seller states that the blade is local. -What do we know about blade manufacture in Maghreb? -What is on the stamp? A date? I seem to see numerals but can't make sense out of them. -The blade sports Indian Ricasso. Was it usual on Maghrebi blades? I have several, but don't recall seeing this feature. One side of the blade is stamped Zaoue. I found one ( two, as a matter of fact) in the discussion here: http://www.mlagb.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/Y...=1116966424/10 But both were from Marseille, France. France, Morocco.... Ze plot sickens!

30th March 2008, 05:03 PM	#10
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	ok your pic is upside down I have played with this a little and can you a little better info. date is 1817. I believe the rest is a name looks like Hazim or Huzane but I may be off on the spelling so do not quote me Attached Images Last edited by ward; 30th March 2008 at 06:58 PM.

29th March 2008, 08:48 AM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	the oval 'with arabic inscription' looks more like a stylized wolf stamp with a couple of decorative flanker symbols at the bottom, at the top 'Zivia' which can mean 'wolf' in hebrew.

30th March 2008, 04:33 AM	#5
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I have no idea what you all are talking about I see numbers = 181 (could be 1181= 18th century to lazy to do the math right now)and a few arabic characters A Haa and Raa. Worn caligraphy is hard to read but I do not see any hebrew or wolf head. Where do you see zivia? Arabic does not have a v symbol untill very recently

30th March 2008, 04:53 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Fully agree.

30th March 2008, 05:48 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	This Moroccan sa'if (commonly termed nimcha) is indeed a very 'pretty' example, and seems to be mounted with what appears to be a French blade. While the sellers description insists this is not a European blade, noting that there were three manufacturing centers for swords in Morocco (apparantly from A.Tirri, "Islamic Weapons: Maghrib to Moghul", 2003, p.25; "..the primary manufacturing centers for swords were Meknes, Tetuan and Marrakech". The previous sentence is excluded, "...blades were mostly imported from Europe"). The blade is narrow and suggests French military sabres of 19th century, the blade has the forte block as often seen on military sabres of Europe, in which there is a built up section at the hilt prior to the sharpened edge,though the concept in its presence is essentially that of the 'Indian ricasso'. The block letter stamp for ZAOUE, as Ariel has shown, apparantly denotes a French gunmaker of the 18th century,whose firm carried into the 19th. These stamped letters suggest likely that the firm was likely an outfitter or arms exporter as well by the 19th century, the block letter stamps similar to those used on arms late 18th into the 19th c. The oval cartouche on the opposite side of the blade suggests possibly armoury, or possibly one of the noted centers where the blade was received and mounted. It seems that these Moroccan sa'if's are almost always mounted with European blades, and I would be interested to know of any examples mounted with locally made blades. While this blade is apparantly French, and not locally made, it by no means diminishes the obvious appeal or authenticity of this sword. ze thought plickens! All best regards, Jim

30th March 2008, 09:44 AM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	i may have just been seeing patterns in the worn stamp, but i was basically trying to say the same thing, that just because the vendor was told it was a local blade of arab mfg. - it may not be. zivia is also a location in corsica, france still a very pretty sword that i wish i had.....

30th March 2008, 09:41 PM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,225	Not to be totally silly (well, actually yeah) - how about a Hebrew dinosaur?