Medieval dagger?

erlikhan · 17th January 2006, 11:16 PM

ebay no 7381700358. do you think it is original medieval item or repro?? Is it not too cheap if original, or you can find medieval daggers so often at any corner on Europe streets that its price is so low??

regards

Ian · 18th January 2006, 01:14 AM

Erlikhan:

Almost impossible to assess genuine medieval iron artefacts from such poor quality pictures. If you look at the other items on the same seller's list you will see two more knives in almost identical states of "decay." They almost appear to have come from the same source. What are the odds?

Our esteemed host, Dr Lee Jones, is an expert in antique weapons and he may be able to give you a better read on these knives. To me they are unconvincing examples of medieval cutlery, but I've been wrong before.

Ian.

ingelred · 18th January 2006, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Erlikhan:

Almost impossible to assess genuine medieval iron artefacts from such poor quality pictures. If you look at the other items on the same seller's list you will see two more knives in almost identical states of "decay." They almost appear to have come from the same source. What are the odds?

Our esteemed host, Dr Lee Jones, is an expert in antique weapons and he may be able to give you a better read on these knives. To me they are unconvincing examples of medieval cutlery, but I've been wrong before.

Ian.

Hello,

I think this item is probably genuine. Concerning Ian's statement that all items on the seller's list are almost in the same of decay, in Germany there are a lot of people searching metal artifacts with detectors as a hobby. These people spend their spare time walking through the landscape with their metal detectors and scanning the terrain for old weapons and metal artifacts. Some of these people sell the found items, some of them collect them. You can find them also on flea markets in Germany. Of course this searching is not really legal.
Probably all these items are of this source.

Greetings, Helge

Andrew · 18th January 2006, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ingelred

Hello,

I think this item is probably genuine.

Hi Helge,

What is it about this particular item that leads you to opine it is genuine?

Andrew

ingelred · 18th January 2006, 06:16 PM

Hello Andrew,

what I mean was I think that the dagger is a real medieval item and not a repro.
What makes me think of that are all the other items offered by the seller.
Of course I can not prove the authenticity (who can just by looking at not so good pictures?).
What I think is that the seller offers items he found by searching the areas around old castles for medieval artifacts using metal detectors.
So found items are often sold on flea markets and through the internet.
That is what may happen here.
Just my guess, I may be wrong.

Greetings Helge

erlikhan · 18th January 2006, 09:45 PM

in my opinion, the corrosion looks natural for an exceptionally preserved old iron undersoil artifact. If it was introduced as a Roman or Celtic dagger, it would convince me more.But in 13-14th centuries, not iron but strong steel was used to make blades, not? and if so, they shouldnt need to cast iron daggers in completely one piece,from tip to pommel. Am I wrong?? In fact I dont have good knowledge about medieval European daggers and can be wrong,if so please correct me.
Plus, how can iron daggers, which are much weaker than bronze against undersoil effects be found intact and in very good condition by digging in numbers large enough to hold their prices in 100-200 dollars? In Turkey which has been a battleground for thousands of years ,many people dig everywhere but I havent met any definite and intact medieval daggers found by anyone,although they have been showing many interesting things from all periods starting from ancient times. Strange.

Tim Simmons · 18th January 2006, 10:14 PM

Personally I think it is a "reproduction

" I post pictures of what is known as a Gubasa which is only just 100+ years old. It was purposely made with an antique and arcane look to convey its ancestral power. To me they appear very similar. The marks on the medieval dagger look hammered in. Sorry if I upset anyone. Tim

Lew · 18th January 2006, 11:29 PM

It seems strange to me that all of the of his stuff has the exact type of patina and degree of errosion? If these daggers are so rare how does one find so many of them? I have old iron arrow heads from that period in time and the rust or errosion is different. Also the spines on those blades look quite thick one would think if they were buried for 700 yrs there would be more damage? Also I don't recall a ring hilted dagger being made in Europe plus the hilt seems quite long people had small hands back then.

Lew

wolviex · 19th January 2006, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

they shouldnt need to cast iron daggers in completely one piece,from tip to pommel. Am I wrong?? In fact I dont have good knowledge about medieval European daggers and can be wrong,if so please correct me.

So let me correct you, they were cast in one piece including hilt

Few facts:
they look genuine, the same patina on different objects might be the effect of restauration, which you can observe also in museums. There is no way to tell if they are real or fakes. The prices ca. 100-500 $ are the same you can find in few good auction houses. If guy found all these objects by himself then it seems to me he has a lot of luck or very good contacts with archeologists

. They are also from different periods. Those from 11th century are generally buried deep and it's not so easy to excavate them. If guy found one source for these objects then I would call it fake - there is no way for the objects from such different centuries to lay in one place, in one layer. Until he didn't make mistake in dating these objects.
It would be good to see one of this things with bare eye, though todays fakes technology might be surprisingly good.

VANDOO · 19th January 2006, 05:36 PM

THERE ARE A LOT OF INTERESTING MAN MADE ARTAFACTS TO BE FOUND IN ALL PARTS OF THE WORLD THE BEST HUNTING IS AROUND OLD BATTLEFIELDS, DUMPS AND AROUND OLD SETTLEMENTS . THE KEY TO FINDING IRON THAT IS FAIRLY INTACT IS THE SURROUNDINGS, IF THE ARTEFACT IS SEALED IN WHERE NO OXYGEN CAN REACH IT ,RUST FORMS ON THE OUTSIDE BUT WHEN THE OXYGEN IS USED UP DURING THE OXIDATION IT BECOMES STABLE. IRON AND STEEL DETEORATE MUCH FASTER THAN SILVER, BRONZE, COPPER, LEAD OR GOLD SO GENERALLY BETTER ARTEFACTS ARE FOUND IN THE OTHER METALS. SO IN CERTIAN AREAS WHERE THE SOIL ,CLAY OR SURROUNDINGS ARE RIGHT IRON ARTEFACTS WILL SURVIVE, MOST OTHER PLACES THERE WILL BE A LAYER OF RUST IN THE SHAPE OF THE ITEM WHICH IF DONE CAREFULLY CAN BE SAVED BY INCASING IT IN A POLYMER PLASTIC BUT THEY SURE DON'T LOOK LIKE MUCH.

I HAVE NEVER HUNTED WITH A METAL DETECTOR BUT KNOW QUITE A FEW WHO DO AND IT IS AMAZING THE AMOUNT OF THINGS THEY HAVE FOUND OVER THE YEARS. OFTEN THEY SELL OFF A LOT OF THE LESS INTERESTING STUFF THEY HAVE FOUND TO MAKE ROOM FOR MORE, SO A GROUP OF SIMULAR OBJECTS FROM ONE SITE MIGHT SHOW UP. WHEN SO MUCH STUFF IS TO BE FOUND IN THE AMERICAS, WHICH WAS IN THE STONE AGE UP UNTIL ITS FAIRLY RECENT DISCOVERY IT IS EASY TO IMAGINE THE AMOUNT OF STUFF TO BE FOUND IN THE OLDER COUNTRYS. LOTS OF HOARDS OF SILVER AND GOLD HAVE BEEN FOUND OVER THE YEARS SO IT IS LIKELY THAT IRON OBJECTS WERE ALSO HIDDEN IN PLACES FOR DIFFERENT REASONS AND OFTEN LOST IN TIMES OF CONFLICT OR JUST FORGOTTEN SO FINDING A GROUP OF LIKE OBJECTS IS A POSSIBILITY.

THE OTHER POSSIBILITY IS THAT OBJECTS COULD EASILY BE RUSTED ARTEFICIALLY FOR SALE IF PRICES WERE HIGH ENOUGH TO MAKE IT WORTHWHILE. IF THE ARTEFACTS WERE AQUIRED FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN HUNTING WITH A METAL DETECTOR FOR YEARS THEY MIGHT HAVE A BOOK LISTING WHEN AND WHERE THEY FOUND THE ITEMS WHICH COULD ESTABLISH PROVENANCE. BUT EVEN THEN THE OBJECTS COULD HAVE BEEN LEFT THERE IN MORE RECENT TIMES AND NOT DATE TO THE LOCALE WHERE FOUND. A VERY CAREFUL ARCHEOLOGIST COULD PROBABLY TELL BY CHECKING THE LAYERS OF DIRT BUT A METAL DETECTOR HOBBYIST JUST DIGGS IT UP.

erlikhan · 24th January 2006, 11:45 AM

[QUOTE=wolviex]So let me correct you, they were cast in one piece including hilt

So was there no development in dagger producing technology since Roman or even earlier iron age times till 13-14th century ??

wolviex · 24th January 2006, 01:55 PM

To be sincere, my knowledge on medieval knives isn't big. I believe it wasn't rule to make knives in one piece. You can find many pieces where hilt and pommel are cast and made separately. On this ebay knife it's hard to tell is the hilt made in one pice with tang, or is it just the effect of corosion. But knives like this happen and here you have some examples of knives from 13-15th centuries.
Regards!

Jens Nordlunde · 24th January 2006, 07:18 PM

Hi Wolviex,

In your mail #12 you show an antenna dagger in the second picture, the one in the middle. Do you know from where the dagger is?
The blade looks like the blades you sometimes see on katars.

wolviex · 25th January 2006, 08:26 AM

Hi Jens!

It's described as Basilard, Italian, 1350-80 y. The blade lenght is 270 mm, width 46mm. It's a picture from Europaische Hieb- und Stichwaffen by Heinrich Muller and Hartmut Kolling.

erlikhan · 25th January 2006, 08:52 AM

And do you know, is forging a better and way than to cast melt iron, for making stronger blades ? (I think so). Perhaps they were forging longer blades for swords, and simple casting was quiet satisfactory enough for shorter dagger blades..

regards

wolviex · 25th January 2006, 10:00 AM

Hi Erlikhan!
I'll pass and let other to pick up cast and forging topic. I'm so rookie in this matter

18th January 2006, 10:14 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Personally I think it is a "reproduction " I post pictures of what is known as a Gubasa which is only just 100+ years old. It was purposely made with an antique and arcane look to convey its ancestral power. To me they appear very similar. The marks on the medieval dagger look hammered in. Sorry if I upset anyone. Tim Attached Images

17th January 2006, 11:16 PM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Medieval dagger? ebay no 7381700358. do you think it is original medieval item or repro?? Is it not too cheap if original, or you can find medieval daggers so often at any corner on Europe streets that its price is so low?? regards

18th January 2006, 01:14 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Erlikhan: Almost impossible to assess genuine medieval iron artefacts from such poor quality pictures. If you look at the other items on the same seller's list you will see two more knives in almost identical states of "decay." They almost appear to have come from the same source. What are the odds? Our esteemed host, Dr Lee Jones, is an expert in antique weapons and he may be able to give you a better read on these knives. To me they are unconvincing examples of medieval cutlery, but I've been wrong before. Ian.

18th January 2006, 06:16 PM	#5
ingelred Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Moenchengladbach, Germany Posts: 62	Hello Andrew, what I mean was I think that the dagger is a real medieval item and not a repro. What makes me think of that are all the other items offered by the seller. Of course I can not prove the authenticity (who can just by looking at not so good pictures?). What I think is that the seller offers items he found by searching the areas around old castles for medieval artifacts using metal detectors. So found items are often sold on flea markets and through the internet. That is what may happen here. Just my guess, I may be wrong. Greetings Helge

18th January 2006, 09:45 PM	#6
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	in my opinion, the corrosion looks natural for an exceptionally preserved old iron undersoil artifact. If it was introduced as a Roman or Celtic dagger, it would convince me more.But in 13-14th centuries, not iron but strong steel was used to make blades, not? and if so, they shouldnt need to cast iron daggers in completely one piece,from tip to pommel. Am I wrong?? In fact I dont have good knowledge about medieval European daggers and can be wrong,if so please correct me. Plus, how can iron daggers, which are much weaker than bronze against undersoil effects be found intact and in very good condition by digging in numbers large enough to hold their prices in 100-200 dollars? In Turkey which has been a battleground for thousands of years ,many people dig everywhere but I havent met any definite and intact medieval daggers found by anyone,although they have been showing many interesting things from all periods starting from ancient times. Strange.

18th January 2006, 11:29 PM	#8
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	It seems strange to me that all of the of his stuff has the exact type of patina and degree of errosion? If these daggers are so rare how does one find so many of them? I have old iron arrow heads from that period in time and the rust or errosion is different. Also the spines on those blades look quite thick one would think if they were buried for 700 yrs there would be more damage? Also I don't recall a ring hilted dagger being made in Europe plus the hilt seems quite long people had small hands back then. Lew

19th January 2006, 05:36 PM	#10
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THERE ARE A LOT OF INTERESTING MAN MADE ARTAFACTS TO BE FOUND IN ALL PARTS OF THE WORLD THE BEST HUNTING IS AROUND OLD BATTLEFIELDS, DUMPS AND AROUND OLD SETTLEMENTS . THE KEY TO FINDING IRON THAT IS FAIRLY INTACT IS THE SURROUNDINGS, IF THE ARTEFACT IS SEALED IN WHERE NO OXYGEN CAN REACH IT ,RUST FORMS ON THE OUTSIDE BUT WHEN THE OXYGEN IS USED UP DURING THE OXIDATION IT BECOMES STABLE. IRON AND STEEL DETEORATE MUCH FASTER THAN SILVER, BRONZE, COPPER, LEAD OR GOLD SO GENERALLY BETTER ARTEFACTS ARE FOUND IN THE OTHER METALS. SO IN CERTIAN AREAS WHERE THE SOIL ,CLAY OR SURROUNDINGS ARE RIGHT IRON ARTEFACTS WILL SURVIVE, MOST OTHER PLACES THERE WILL BE A LAYER OF RUST IN THE SHAPE OF THE ITEM WHICH IF DONE CAREFULLY CAN BE SAVED BY INCASING IT IN A POLYMER PLASTIC BUT THEY SURE DON'T LOOK LIKE MUCH. I HAVE NEVER HUNTED WITH A METAL DETECTOR BUT KNOW QUITE A FEW WHO DO AND IT IS AMAZING THE AMOUNT OF THINGS THEY HAVE FOUND OVER THE YEARS. OFTEN THEY SELL OFF A LOT OF THE LESS INTERESTING STUFF THEY HAVE FOUND TO MAKE ROOM FOR MORE, SO A GROUP OF SIMULAR OBJECTS FROM ONE SITE MIGHT SHOW UP. WHEN SO MUCH STUFF IS TO BE FOUND IN THE AMERICAS, WHICH WAS IN THE STONE AGE UP UNTIL ITS FAIRLY RECENT DISCOVERY IT IS EASY TO IMAGINE THE AMOUNT OF STUFF TO BE FOUND IN THE OLDER COUNTRYS. LOTS OF HOARDS OF SILVER AND GOLD HAVE BEEN FOUND OVER THE YEARS SO IT IS LIKELY THAT IRON OBJECTS WERE ALSO HIDDEN IN PLACES FOR DIFFERENT REASONS AND OFTEN LOST IN TIMES OF CONFLICT OR JUST FORGOTTEN SO FINDING A GROUP OF LIKE OBJECTS IS A POSSIBILITY. THE OTHER POSSIBILITY IS THAT OBJECTS COULD EASILY BE RUSTED ARTEFICIALLY FOR SALE IF PRICES WERE HIGH ENOUGH TO MAKE IT WORTHWHILE. IF THE ARTEFACTS WERE AQUIRED FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN HUNTING WITH A METAL DETECTOR FOR YEARS THEY MIGHT HAVE A BOOK LISTING WHEN AND WHERE THEY FOUND THE ITEMS WHICH COULD ESTABLISH PROVENANCE. BUT EVEN THEN THE OBJECTS COULD HAVE BEEN LEFT THERE IN MORE RECENT TIMES AND NOT DATE TO THE LOCALE WHERE FOUND. A VERY CAREFUL ARCHEOLOGIST COULD PROBABLY TELL BY CHECKING THE LAYERS OF DIRT BUT A METAL DETECTOR HOBBYIST JUST DIGGS IT UP.

24th January 2006, 11:45 AM	#11
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	[QUOTE=wolviex]So let me correct you, they were cast in one piece including hilt So was there no development in dagger producing technology since Roman or even earlier iron age times till 13-14th century ??

24th January 2006, 01:55 PM	#12
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	To be sincere, my knowledge on medieval knives isn't big. I believe it wasn't rule to make knives in one piece. You can find many pieces where hilt and pommel are cast and made separately. On this ebay knife it's hard to tell is the hilt made in one pice with tang, or is it just the effect of corosion. But knives like this happen and here you have some examples of knives from 13-15th centuries. Regards! Attached Images

24th January 2006, 07:18 PM	#13
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Wolviex, In your mail #12 you show an antenna dagger in the second picture, the one in the middle. Do you know from where the dagger is? The blade looks like the blades you sometimes see on katars.

25th January 2006, 08:26 AM	#14
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Hi Jens! It's described as Basilard, Italian, 1350-80 y. The blade lenght is 270 mm, width 46mm. It's a picture from Europaische Hieb- und Stichwaffen by Heinrich Muller and Hartmut Kolling.

25th January 2006, 08:52 AM	#15
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	And do you know, is forging a better and way than to cast melt iron, for making stronger blades ? (I think so). Perhaps they were forging longer blades for swords, and simple casting was quiet satisfactory enough for shorter dagger blades.. regards

25th January 2006, 10:00 AM	#16
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Hi Erlikhan! I'll pass and let other to pick up cast and forging topic. I'm so rookie in this matter