I need some more informations over Khanda swords

[dralin23]

hi there overall in the world!!
my last brandnew sword is an khanda ore maybe patissa sword. i bought it from artzi( oriental arms). i think it is an very good sword. i would like etch it after the cleaning. now i found an small 2mm big hole at the back from the blade. at first i thought that it is an rust pitting, after i got cleaned it, i noticed that it is an drilled hole.now i rememberd me that in the book " islamic weapons" from a.c.tirri is also such an sword wit an hole in the blade. page 318 ,fig.240. where was writen that these hole was drilled as an sign that the owner from these sword killed over 100 people with these sword. now i´m intrested if some one can tell me if these story true ore it is an nightmare for bad childs?
my next question!! can tell me someone from these forum, something over the padding from khanda hilts. special i need some better informations ocver the wrapping from the hilt. is it leather ore also velvet like the padding, ore maybe an other binding. how was it fixed? with glue? i´m thankfull for all information what you can give me!!
i hope i became a lot of new informations!
stefan

[spiral]

I dont know why yours is like that one but 20 to 30 years English country pubs were full of old swords nailed to the wall. They are all in collections knowadays.

The holes look better filled with gold or brass. But how or when they were doneoriginaly? I dont know.

Spiral

[fernando]

Hi Jonathan

Originally Posted by spiral

I dont know why yours is like that one but 20 to 30 years English country pubs were full of old swords nailed to the wall. They are all in collections knowadays.

The holes look better filled with gold or brass. But how or when they were doneoriginaly? I dont know.

Spiral

Are you talking about the same hole as Stefan ?

Fernando

[spiral]

Indeed Fernando, thats a prime place to help nail them up.

I have seen [in my misspent youth} probably a couple of hundred ethnographic swords on pub walls. Today they are all in prized collections.

But usualy the holes are plugged. Or they are sold with a story saying a drilled hole in the blade means its killed a 100 men..

Reality is if you killed 80 or 120 men in battle do you realy know how many it was? personlay i doubt it.

But each to thier own.

Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Stefan,
Artzi is indeed very often the source for many of the outstanding weapons that are thankfully posted here for discussion, and yours is yet another!!!
The terminology on Indian weapons is a topic that will probably always be open for debate. It seems that the hilt form of your sword is of course regarded as that of the 'khanda'. While this has been established as an early form of sword in India, the term itself may be generally applied as simply a descriptive term for sword much as 'tulwar' or sa'if'.
When the khanda is mounted with a foreign blade it changes reference to being called a 'firangi' (loosely= foreign). The distinctly spatulated tip of the blade on yours brings the definition (according to Pant) to 'pattisa' from my understanding.

As with most weapons, there is a great deal of folklore associated with them as well as considerable religious and often talismanic applications, probably best described in Robert Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Armour". This book is the product of many years of intense scholarly research that presents the most comprehensive perspective on these Indian weapons I have seen.

Regarding the hole in the center of the blade, I am inclined to agree with the likelihood that it may have more to do with mounting and displaying the weapon than the suggested folkloric meanings. I once had a beautiful British M1788 heavy cavalry basket hilt with a huge blade, and in the exact same location on the blade was a hole drilled exactly as shown, and could only have been meant to hold a nail. Despite the intriguing suggestion, I have not really encountered any means of tallying 'kills' on sword blades any more than gunfighters really notched thier guns in the "wild west"!

All best regards,
Jim

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Regarding the hole in the center of the blade, I am inclined to agree with the likelihood that it may have more to do with mounting and displaying the weapon than the suggested folkloric meanings. I once had a beautiful British M1788 heavy cavalry basket hilt with a huge blade, and in the exact same location on the blade was a hole drilled exactly as shown, and could only have been meant to hold a nail. Despite the intriguing suggestion, I have not really encountered any means of tallying 'kills' on sword blades any more than gunfighters really notched thier guns in the "wild west"!

All best regards,
Jim

Well Jim , I have only seen such a suggestion in " islamic weapons" from Mr. Tirri myself.

I dismissed it having seen so many nailed up examples myself , which i presume many American collecters were unaware off when buying in auction or from dealers?

I must admit I saw a few 1796 sabres & even a few naval swords treated in same mannor as well Jim. Expect most are filled one way or another knowadays though. probablyly with steel, tin or something rather whiter than gold or brass though.

I think Artzi has both bought & sold many weapons from Mr. Tirris collection? as my eyes tell me?

Its intresting to watch some weapons do the rounds of various collectors/dealers , while others just disapear from public veiw to become keepers.

As the kukri people say , each one ends up with the person its meant to be with.

Spiral

[fernando]

Originally Posted by spiral

Well Jim , I have only seen such a suggestion in " islamic weapons" from Mr. Tirri myself.
... I think Artzi has both bought & sold many weapons from Mr. Tirris collection? as my eyes tell me?

I am learning that Mr. Tirry is a knotty boy

Originally Posted by spiral

having seen so many nailed up examples myselfSpiral

Criminals

Originally Posted by spiral

As the kukri people say , each one ends up with the person its meant to be with.
Spiral

My people say: Each one has that which he deserves

Fernando

[ward]

Tirri's opinions should be taken only as such. He is a wealthy collector who financed a private publishing. enough said

[dralin23]

hi spiral
thanks all for your posted opinions!!
the hole is at an other place in the blade. it is only a very small hole ca. 2mm , such an hole is to small for an nail. i know also such wall nailed swords but i hope the history from these sword is not these. ( it smell not like guiness ore kilkeny )
can someone help me because the hiltbinding???
stefan

[Jim McDougall]

The original graphic furnished circled what appeared to be a hole which was dead center in the blade, and resembled the unfortunate hole I described in the British sword I had. The hole in my sword was clearly not intended as any sort of decorative feature, nor did it have anything to do with the use of the sword, also it could not have been the result of anything accidental or natural.
The 'hole' now shown is among the linear group of impressions that are typically featured on the backpiece of these swords. These strengthening elements it seems often carried these dotlike impressions to vestigially represent the holes in many temple swords where auspicious or apotropaic decorations were applied. This is at least my impression. I am uncertain to what degree the temple swords were decorated but it seems that jingles were often the form of decoration to ward off malevolence during ceremonies and ritual.
I am uncertain why a singular hole would be present in this case.

The key importance of "Hindu Arms and Ritual" is that Robert Elgood explains in great depth how to understand the symbolism imbued in these weapons and the deep reverence with which they are held. Until his work was presented, virtually all references to Indian weapons dealt almost wholly with typology, and even then inconsistantly. I cannot recommend this book highly enough to anyone seriously interested in collecting and understanding these Indian arms.

[katana]

Hi Dralin 23,
first of all ...that is a lovely Khanda....congratulations
How are the 'decorative' edgings on your sword fixed to the blade?
I am wondering whether it is rivetted ....and the hole is where a rivet should have been...and is now lost.

Regards David

[dralin23]

hi jim, hi katana
thanks for the congrats! yes it is an nice patisa ore maybe an khanda. the intresting is , it is not an flat blade , this blade got an small middle ridge!! it is unusual. all my khandablades are flat with cutting edges and these are stronger in the center. these hole ar not under the backplates it is in the area from the blade. see the picture again.
regards, stefan

[spiral]

I still wouldnt rule out a nail hole, a 2mm hole is big enoughh for a good massonary or carpentry nail.

Spiral

[ALEX]

There are only 3 choices - wall hanging, decoration or symbol signifying some kind of event, i.e. x-number of killed, etc. It'd be a difficult guess, since it can be ANY of those. I also have a Yataghan with hole in the center of the blade, and it is definitely not for hanging on the wall - because of the ears:-) and it is drilled in a special manner, so I preclude it was made for decoration purposes. I could not find an original owner's manual, so again - just a guess:-)

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Alex,
Nice to hear from you, and the hole in your blade is strange, as it would normally be fulled with gold/brass. I have never seen it like the hole on your blade before.
Jens

[Jim McDougall]

I think the folklore associated with edged weapons is intriguing, although typically the tales remain just that, extremely imaginative folklore. It is true however, that superstition, talismanic beliefs and myth were often deeply believed and observed by the individuals using the weapons.

As far as I know, many of the romanticized tales that claim certain modifications or applications on edged weapons such as gold or brass filled holes, or filed notches etc. were deliberately placed to represent the number of killed enemies etc. has never been proven.As I previously had mentioned, the myth of the notched grip on gunfighters revolvers is equally unproven, and the tale was largely the product of the embellishing writers of the period.

While bravery and the killing of the enemy in battle was of course often celebrated, and certainly there were certain elements of either dress or accoutrement that might be worn representing such deeds, but to keep tally on a weapon in numeric marking...mostly the product of misinterpretation or collectors imaginations. Naturally I would be fascinated to see supported examples of such markings on weapons.

As for decoration, I cannot see how a huge drilled hole that seems machine drilled in the center of the blade could have any decorative or symbolic value. It also seems that a hole drilled through the blade in this location would enormously compromise the integrity of the blade, at least this was what was suggested when considering blades with slotted holes to hold sliding bearings or pearls (tears of the wounded). While as Jens has noted, some blades did have hollowed out spots on them that were filled with gold or brass, some they were usually in some systemic arrangement or strategically placed, and huge like this completely through the blade.


That would leave the dreadful thought of this very attractive yataghan screwed to something in some sort of display, though I cannot imagine what someone could be thinking by doing that!

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi all, regarding the posting from Alex...

This would not be the first blade I have seen drilled in the manner, although I have not seen this type of weapon drilled, I have seen many Khyber knives and cavalry swords drilled in this manner here in Australia over the years and the pairs secured with a countersunk screw to have the weapons in a crossed fashion for mounting.

With the type of hilt present on this blade I don't see it being too hard to have a block of wood used as a spacer behind with a long screw to keep the setting all square and presentable. If I stumble across any again or images of this type of mounting I will post them in future discussions.
And Jim, if you are reading this I have not forgotten the symbolism in your trademark forum, just super busy during this silly season.

Gav

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Gav,
Thank you for that information......I hadnt thought of the crossed swords display, and the bolt through would perfectly explain how they might have often done that...travesty that it is .

Thank you also for the kind note regarding the trademark thread....we'll keep it going and we're making great progress. I really look forward to your additions!

All the best,
Jim

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by freebooter

...With the type of hilt present on this blade I don't see it being too hard to have a block of wood used as a spacer behind with a long screw to keep the setting all square and presentable. ...
Gav

Good point Gav,
I looked closely at the yataghan's blade from the top, and noticed a small curvature/bend at the center of the blade where the hole is. Could it be caused by mounting it via the hole? Not sure if the tension of the bent blade can leave it permanently curved.