Help please. Japanese Gunto (Genuine ? ) with battlefield scabbard.

[katana]

Hi,
can anyone please help with a new aquisition, what I believe to be a genuine Gunto. Saya is wooden with leather cover (type 98 ?) single suspension ring. The blade seems better than average quality and has obviously been re-fitted with this latest handle.

No tsuba, seppa or habaki
Kissaki looks reasonable, there seems to be some evidence of forging....in places looks almost straight grained (Masame ?) No obvious harmon not even an oil quenched one, but the blade has many scratches and is out of polish. The blade spine (mune ?) appears to be Ihori ie inverted 'V' profile.

The tang I believe is Futsu and the tang-tip Kurijiri.

Blade tip to 'step' (just before the tang) 65cm OAL 85cms Widest point 30mm approx. 3.5 mm thick.

Plenty of pictures,....can any one confirm this is Gunto, could the blade be older ? all comments gratefully received, thank you

David

PS I've just noticed on the picture of the tang there could be (very faint) a signature ??

[Battara]

Well it could be a true nihonto according to the 3 holes in the tang. Condition rough however and would need major restoration (polish, etc.). Getting a tang rubbing of the Japanese characters would also be helpful for translation.

[katana]

Hi Batarra ,
I have tried chalk dust and a 'rubbing' but to no avail . I am beginning to think that the signature is nothing more than a combination of marks,patina, a trick of the light and rust .... it really only seems to have been 'indicated' in the picture.

The blade may be nihonto, but at the very least it seems to have some quality. The sword was stored away for many years and the edge is still quite sharp. I am wondering whether it would be worth doing a 'window etch' ....would this show the hada (if any) and hamon ??

The mounts seem crude for a reasonable blade ....I am sure this sword has great stories to tell....

Regards David

[Battara]

A window polish might not be a bad idea. Sometimes good and family blades were placed in "crude" mounts when being brought into the combat arena.

[katana]

Cleaned an area on the blade with very fine wet and dry paper using a very fine 1020 grade then (even finer) 2040 grade, lubricated with some olive oil.

First thing that was noticeable is there is a Hamon and its not a Chinese acid etched one !!! Its not regular but is a fine colour change in the steel I also think there is 'activity' in the blade....impossible to photograph....but when reflecting direct sunlight the cleaned area glistens and sparkles...hard to explain but the blade seems to come to life as you gentle 'angle' it in the sunlight.... like it is covered in very fine glitter ...but when you look at the blade 'staight on' the 'metallic' sheen is gone ....not explaining this very well but hoping someone might understand the 'rambles' of this madman

There is a small, but noticeable, forging flaw which could explain why, if the blade is of some quality, it was not signed ??

Not certain what to do now...should I etch the newly cleaned area ????

I would be grateful for any advice, help or comments

Regards David

[laEspadaAncha]

Hi David,

Fuller & Gregory cover this variant of late-war production, leather-covered shin-gunto, which according to them, "may be encountered without tsuba or kabuto-gane." These late-war variants were invariably of poor construction. The shrunken leather scabbard cover looks right for the age & pattern. I do find the three mekugi ana to be a little odd and "out of scope" IMO.

Regards,

Chris

[Battara]

Usually though the ersatz late Japanese pieces do not have 3 fit tang holes.

Also many nihonto blades are not signed, having nothing to do with forging flaws.

[laEspadaAncha]

Something else that caught my attention - the bent kissaki and ha (edge)... Normally, these will chip due to the hardness of the tempered edge (including the boshi). While my exposure is admittedly limited, I can't recall seeing a bent kissaki or edge, though I have seen more than a few edge nicks and chips.

[katana]

Hi Chris ,
I totally agree that the scabbard and fitting are low quality and typical of those late in WW2.
However, the blade is much better quality and seems a total mismatch...whether it is due to necessity during the war or later ...
The very tip of the kissaki is slightly bent (the picture makes it look larger) but is still extremely sharp and well defined..... and do not want to try to straighten it as I am certain it would snap. The tip is also very thin where it mets the spine due to the contination of the Ihori (inverted v profiled spine)The edge section you mentioned is also quite small. I am not saying this blade is Nihonto but does seem better than some other gunto I have seen.
The late war blades were often made from sub-standard steel and produced rapidly, so manufacturing standards dropped...it was a time of desperation, so do not believe that this blade is one of those.

I have only seen a few gunto but do not recall any of them having the Ihori type spine....just a standard flat one.

Thank you Battara for your continual input , I too think that the 3 ana points to a 'previous' life. I had thought that all nihonto were signed ...sounds alittle more promising

Kind Regards David

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by katana

I have only seen a few gunto but do not recall any of them having the Ihori type spine...

Hi David,

FWIW, all three kai gunto I have owned (only one of which is still in my collection) had ihori mune.

Of these, two were of pre-war production and the other had a mei and nengo dating it to 1943.

Regards,

Chris

[laEspadaAncha]

Re: the presence of mei / signatures, of my two nihonto, only one is signed. The other, a beautiful Koto Bizen Wakizashi, is mumei. FWIW, this latter example has gunto koshirae. However, I've not encountered an heirloom blade in the late-war leather-covered mounting before.

[katana]

Hi Chris,
I have drawn around the blade (onto paper) and following how to measure the blade here...
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/measure.htm

Have come to discover some interesting facts

The blade thickness (Kasane) is approx just a tiny bit more than 3mm (3.03mm = 1 bu)

The blade width (mihaba) is approx, but not less than 30mm (30.3 mm = 1 sun )

The kissaki to yokote is also approx 30mm (1 sun)
The Nagasa is 645mm ...so greater than 2 Shaku , therefore a Katana. I think I'm right in saying the length is 2 shaku 1 sun 3 bu ?
The tang (Nakago) is 23cms

The Sor (curvature) is Torrii Sori (curvature at centre)
It seems that many of the dimensions follow the 'old' measurements.

I have also, I believe, found what the Hada (if indeed it is hada) is...it looks to be similar to Konuka
http://www.ncjsc.org/gloss_hada-1.html

Interestingly, it is mentioned that Hizen blades are known for this hada. When searching info on Hizen, it is stated that many have 'straight' hamon ...which mine appears to have. Several of the Hizen katana blades do look very similar (can't post as they are for sale)

Also Gunto blades were apparently 6mm or more (blade thickness) and 'clumsy'. This blade does not match that description.

Kind Regards David

[Battara]

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Re: the presence of mei / signatures, of my two nihonto, only one is signed. The other, a beautiful Koto Bizen Wakizashi, is mumei. FWIW, this latter example has gunto koshirae. However, I've not encountered an heirloom blade in the late-war leather-covered mounting before.

Actually I have, and even some in gunto or kai-gunto mounts.

Also, ask Rich S - he would be the best source on these pieces.

[laEspadaAncha]

Hi David,

While not by any means a statistically valid sampling, I nonetheless measured the kasane on my kai gunto and two nihonto (I had not previously taken this measurement). Of the two nihonto, one is the aforementioned Koto Bizen Wakizashi, and the other is a rather long Shinshinto katana made by a ranked smith. The kasane of the former measured approx. 5.6-5.7 mm, the latter measured nearly 7mm. By comparison, the kasane on my remaining kai gunto (dated 1943) measured approx. 5.9 mm.

I do agree that every gunto blade I can recall handling (you encounter a lot of WWII "bringbacks" here in San Diego) were of similar thickness. I sure don't recall having handled any gunto as thin as yours.

I tend to look at these as if I was evaluating them as a potential acquisition... I thus look for anything that might be of concern to me. With regards to this example, in addition to the bent ha and kissaki, I might be concerned by what appear to be visible forging marks on the blade - both on the ji and the shinogi-ji - and by the almost meandering appearance of the shinogi (or are these artifacts of the photographs?)

Please understand though, my exposure is admittedly limited, and I hesitate to even consider myself a "student" of nihonto.

When time allows, could you post macro photos of both the nakago and the window resulting from your light polish?

If you can visible identify the hada and hamon, you are on the right track, and as you have mentioned, these should give you some insight into the origin and age of your blade.

Like Jose suggested, Rich S. is our resident expert... and I haven't hesitated to shoot him a PM in the past. Of course, he may very well suggest you post it on NMB, which is IMO the foremost resource on nihonto on the web, with a global community of nihonto collectors (including more than a few in Japan) who won't hesitate to assist you with further identification. Should you decide to post it there, please let us know what you find out!

[katana]

Hi Chris,
thank you for your input . I have tried to 'capture' the hada but it seems almost impossible ....it is very subtle. I have posted my poor efforts below. I am amazed as to the relative rigidity of the blade , there is flex ..but I would normally expect much more flexibility from a sword blade just over 3mm thick.
It seems that many of the scratches were caused by sharpening (crudely) ...I believe (by patina) that this sharpening may have occured 'in the field'. The shinogi, is very regular so must be the photos. The forging marks are scratches (the ji and the shinogi-ji ) they look worse than they actually are (magnified picture)

Kind Regards David

[laEspadaAncha]

Hi David,

Thanks for posting these additional photos...

The scratches on the surface look much more superficial in these photos than in the earlier pictures. The shinogi, while it does appear regular, still seems to lack a certain "crispness" I am accustomed to seeing in shinogi-zukuri nihonto. Again, this observation comes with the caveat that my exposure is rather limited. I also recognize this may be simply a result of the photographs. I took a couple photos of the shinogi of one of my own earlier today. Tomorrow I will download them and see if they appear different through a lens then they do to the naked eye.

Also, if you're so inclined, could you take some similar photos of the nakago/tang? It would be nice to get an up-close look at the patina and the file marks if they are visible.

[katana]

Hi Chris,
sorry for the delay in posting, will get pictures of the nakago and post them soon. Meanwhile I have been carefully cleaning the rest of the blade using 1200 /2400 grit paper, which has also improved the sharpness of the edge ( I have literally drawn blood in the pursuit of a cleaner blade heck of a way to learn to 'focus on the task' ...one lapse of concentration and the blade can 'bite' ....)

In the pursuit of knowledge I decided to test the blade on some soft targets......one plastic bottle filled with water....which it cut through easily. So then on to 3 bottles in a row ....results below..... OK doesn't prove the true quality of the blade but learning should have an element of fun...

Kind Regards David

[Rick]

WoW !

You guys pay through the nose for Coca Cola ....

[katana]

Originally Posted by Rick

WoW !

You guys pay through the nose for Coca Cola ....

LOL ......every sword should have a name.....perhaps 'price slasher' for this one

Best
David

[laEspadaAncha]

Hi David,

Re: drawing blood, you and I both! Sliced my thumb deep a couple days ago on a tanto I was remounting in koshirae after photographing it. I always look at such acts of carelessness as a sign that I am supposed to keep the blade that draws my blood... a blood sacrifice, if you will.

I've cut- tested several contemporary and vintage hunting knives I've sharpened - more as a test of the blade steel and my weak sharpening skills - but never an antique blade or a blade of considerable value. I have however needlessly destroyed more than my share of 2-liter bottles with things that go 'bang.'

Anyway, regarding the sword... I am looking forward to seeing photos of the nakago. The patina seems to indicate some real age, as does the presence of three mekugi ana... a puzzle as of yet unsolved, IMO.

Have you reached out to Rich yet? He indicates on his website the late-war, a.k.a., "desparation" swords were invariably of poor quality. Scroll down to "End-of-War" Hilts for his description of the type I believe your sword to be.

However, as has been said, the nakago seems to indicate otherwise.

I did photograph the shinogi on my koto waki, and found that the play of light can result in a photograph in which the shinogi looses a little of that "crispness" of definition so apparent with the naked eye. However, in most of the photos, it looked laser-straight. Here's two photos:





The first is of the shinogi on the aforementioned tanto that nearly took my thumb in tribute. The second is of my koto waki (ignore the idiot marks left by a previous owner's attempt to polish the sword). See how crisp the shinogi appears? Anyway, I look forward to seeing pics of the nakago.

BTW, Rick is right - you guys do pay a metric f#@&-ton for Coca-Cola! Please tell me at least that's a 3-liter bottle!

[katana]

Hi Chris,
important matters first .....the coke bottle is a 2 litre ....not a 3 . I don't do 'things that go bang' (due to UK laws) but certainly sounds fun.
If this blade turns out to be Nihonto, I will NOT be doing it again unless it is not particularly valuable (monetary or historically)

Nice examples Chris, thank you for sharing.

Below are some pics of the nakago ....there does seem to be file marks ...also on the rear edge (top and bottom) some diagonal marks. I have tried again to capture the apparent 'activity' in the blade...but not very successfully. I have briefly 'cleaned' the kissaki with 1200 grit paper (not very well) but it seems to show some 'crispness' to its definition. The shinogi on mine is not as crisp as yours....very slightly rounded, but I think this may be due to poor polishing. There is a small section of the shinogi which is not perfectly in line ......at this same section on the blade there were 'ghost' marks, very unclear, but seem to have been Japanese characters which may have been polished out ....and in doing so affected the line of the shinogi at this point. I have carefully checked for any fatal flaws ....and so far found none ....but then again a proper polish may show these more clearly ??
I , so far, have not contacted Rich yet ....I don't want to waste his time if this blade is not kosher or at least a high probabillity that it is genuine.

All the best
David

.

[laEspadaAncha]

Hi David,

Thank you for posting the pics of the nakago. I am at a loss...

The patina looks legitimate and old, and as been mentioned, along with the three mekugi ana, seems to speak to age. Thus, as the opinion should fit the data, maybe the aforementioned attributes that raise concern can be explained by a bad polish as you suggest, or a tired sword?

If the sword has been polished through the skin steel, leaving in its wake the softer core steel, I would think this might account for the appearance of the shinogi, the bent ha and kissaki, and the 3mm kasane? We are so far past my confidence level I can only surmise without certitude, and follow up such possible explanations with the obligatory shrug:

I can state with certainty however, that so long as this sword is in your possession, carbinated beverages should remain afraid... very afraid.

[katana]

Thank you Chris for your opinion , I have tried to contact Rich via the moderators, if unsuccessful I will post on the Nihonto forum. It definately would be disappointing if the hardened steel has been 'polished away' ....I'm hoping that it had an rough WW2 polish to make it serviceable.

Kind Regards David

[Rich]

I've been under the weather for a while. Looked at you pics and think (?) the discussion is on the right track. Most likely an end of the war sword that has been left to rust and amaturishly cleaned. I see no evidence of hada (grain) or hamon (temper line). Just deep scratches. The shinogi is severly rounded. The nakago is a bit odd; perhaps that level of rust might (?) occur if the hilt had been really soaked and left to rust. The nakago ana (tang holes) are still quite crisp. IMHO, it's not likely to be worth the time, effort or expense to restore. BUT, that is just one guys opinion based on pics. There are several sword groups in the UK. I would suggest you see if you can get in touch with one of them for a hands on opinion. Sorry I can't be of more help.

Rich S

[katana]

Hi Rich,
sorry to hear you have been unwell and thank you for adding your informed comments. I may still try and get a 'hands on' evaulation ...just in case, as my photography is not the best. Thanks for the advice.

Kind Regards David

[katana]

I have quickly etched the blade with vinegar, in an effort to show any activity in the blade. Seems to be laminated ? The edge has a visible straight-ish harmon (?) .....if not, a 'inserted' edge ?

What do you think ?

Regards David

[katana]

Bump ....

Please

Just wondered if anyone had any ideas as to the 'hamon' / inserted edge dilemma ......... picture above .

Regards David

[laEspadaAncha]

Hi David,

An interesting read may be found here, in which the author (Kevin Jones) discusses at some length the different aspects of variability in the process of manufacturing. Notice that eight of the nine variants possess at least a yakiba if not a hamon (I would classify your example as the former). You might even consider reaching out to him directly.

An interesting note: according the article, after 1933 any non-traditional sword was to have been stamped on the nakago to indicate it were not gendaito. While there are plenty of indicators in your example that point towards a late-war production, the presence of a tang stamp does not appear to be one of them.

Hopefully Rich can shed some light as to whether this practice or standard had been eschewed by the time the late-war ersatz examples were produced?

Anyway, here are the nine variants as listed in the article:

***

1. Tamahagane gendaito. Fully hand forged and differentially hardened in the traditional manner using water as a quenching agent. Possesses an active hamon and hada.

2. Mill-steel gendaito. Fully hand forged from mill steel or (more often) 19th century railway tracks made from Swedish steel. Differentially hardened in the traditional manner using water as a quenching agent. Possesses an active hamon and hada.

3. Koa-isshin Mantetsu-to. Made from Manchurian steel by a special process. Partly forged, partly engineered, and differentially hardened in the traditional manner using water as a quenching agent. Possesses an active hamon and hada.

4. Han-tanren abura yaki-ire-to. Partially forged from mill stock, some folding, differentially hardened using oil. Does have a hamon although it is nowhere near as active as a water-quenched sword, but lacks hada.

5. Sunobe abura yaki-ire-to. Drawn down, forged to shape, not folded. Differential hardened using oil, may have a fairly inactive hamon, but no hada.

6. Mantetsu-to. Rolled from Manchurian railway tracks. Differential hardening using oil, may have a fairly inactive hamon, but no hada.

7. Murata-to. Rolled or drawn, oil hardened but not differentially hardened. Yakiba but no visible hamon and no hada.

8. Tai-sabi-ko. Stainless steel, oil-hardened, no grain, no hamon, possible yakiba. Made for the Imperial Japanese Navy to resist salt corrosion.

9. Machine made. Serial number in the blade. No forging; stamped out and quenched in oil without differential hardening, assuming that they are hardened at all. No hada and no hamon. Some may in fact be plated, and in the worst cases the hamon may be acid etched onto the steel. The classic example is the NCO swords. On a par with Chinese fakes, and the most commonly faked sword.

***


Lastly, I don't know if this has been mentioned already, but the gunto koshirae are a poor fit to the blade. I have a hard time imagining a habaki - even with a theoretical missing tsuba - would or could cover that much real estate...

In the end, more conflicting data, though my "gut" still leans towards a late-war production... I still think you will receive a more definitive answer over at the NMB. IMHO I would post it in the gunto forum and see what the members can tell you (this sets the bar at a level to either meet or exceed expectations).

Regards,

Chris

[katana]

Chris, great stuff There isn't much on 19thC - WW2 katana's .....but this reference certainly expands the possibillities. As a weapon, I think the blade is good quality ....but as art

Thanks
David

.

[Rich]

Tang stamped blades EXCEPT star stamps are considered non-traditionally made. You can't even get them into Japan to be polished as they are considered by Japanese customs to be illegal weapons. However, the absence of a tang stamp does not mean it is a gendaito as stamps weren't started until sometime in the 40's (sorry, don't recall exact date) and many WW II swords were made before that. Many end of the war swords weren't made in Japan, but rather in Japanese occupied locations like the Phillipines, etc. so they wouldn't have stamps either.

Rich S