sword i bid on, but dident meet the reserve.

chevalier · 20th July 2008, 10:46 PM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=180261266822

best looking nimcha ive seen.

RhysMichael · 20th July 2008, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevalier

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=180261266822

best looking nimcha ive seen.

A nice Saif/Nimcha. We need to get Artzi and Jim to weigh in here on the term Nimcha/Nimsha. While this one is often called a Nimcha I have been led to believe that Saif is a more correct term for them

Battara · 20th July 2008, 11:58 PM

I think this would be classified as nimcha - and you should see Rsword's nimcha - that is the best I have ever seen or heard of.....

Jim McDougall · 21st July 2008, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

A nice Saif/Nimcha. We need to get Artzi and Jim to weigh in here on the term Nimcha/Nimsha. While this one is often called a Nimcha I have been led to believe that Saif is a more correct term for them

Thanks very much RhysMichael,
The term nim'sha is indeed meant to specify a short sword in Arabic (as noted in Elgood, "Arabian Arms and Armour") and it is but one instance of many misnomers used by collectors in describing weapons. The term sa'if is the generally applied Arabic term for sword, general, not otherwise specified.

The term 'nimcha' for the familiar multiquilloned sabre of Morocco is now firmly engrained in standard collectors terminology, though they typically carry full length sabre blades.

The example that Chevalier has posted falls into the nimcha category, but is not from Morocco, actually with the ring guard it is of the form typically considered Arabian, but these were usually made in Zanzibar (see "Catalogue de la Collection d'Armes Anciennes of Charles Buttin" , Rumilly, France, 1933, examples 996-1002). Artzi can definitely say more on these, as the one I have was obtained from him, and he is far more up on details than I.

Best regards,
Jim

RhysMichael · 21st July 2008, 12:35 AM

So if I am not too far off the multiquillion variety from Morocco is usually called a Nimcha though that term may have originally meant a short sword, and been improperly used in early sword texts ( but now is the normal description) The ring guards like this usually come from Zanzibar so the arab term Saif is more appropriate. Or am I misinterpreting this ?

Moroccan ??
http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photo...02920/ph-5.jpg
http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photo...00108/ph-1.jpg

Zanzibar and Arabia ??
http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photo...01485/ph-1.jpg

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photo...00093/ph-2.jpg

or maybe I am splitting hairs

Then there is the short sword sometimes called a wedding nimcha
http://therionarms.com/sold/ttoy100.JPG

And I have mentioned it here before but in the collection of pirate artifacts displayed at a resturant in Charleston SC called "Queen Anne's Revenge" there is a sword with a hilt and quillions of a Nimcha and the blade of a Takouba

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I and you should see Rsword's nimcha - that is the best I have ever seen or heard of.....

He does get some amazing swords. Its enough to make me jealouse ~lol~

ward · 21st July 2008, 12:54 AM

I agree it is not moroccan nice piece. Saif is just a transliteration of the arabic word for sword.

Rick · 21st July 2008, 01:01 AM

What would we call this one with a backsword blade; Sayf ?
I would think so .

I've always understood the ring guards to indicate locations other than Morocco and Algeria .

RhysMichael · 21st July 2008, 01:05 AM

A nice sword Rick

Artzi Posted this on another forum

Quote:

Zanzibar was for a long time during the 19 C. a center for weapon production for the Arab world. Blades were purchased from Germany or forged locally, and mounted in the style common in the customer’s countries and cultures.

I remember seeing one Nimcha/Saif with an Andrea Ferara blade and some with eyelash markings that could show they were soligen

ward · 21st July 2008, 01:16 AM

generally when refering to a nimcha you are referring to the horn handle the knuckle guard and the distinctive quillions. The blade type is basically not a issue. If you look at the one originally posted the quillons are different and the grips are wood (they look original). That is why it's origin is different close but not not the mark.

Rick · 21st July 2008, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

generally when refering to a nimcha you are referring to the horn handle the knuckle guard and the distinctive quillions. The blade type is basically not a issue. If you look at the one originally posted the quillons are different and the grips are wood (they look original). That is why it's origin is different close but not not the mark.

Okay then, we can throw out the 'short' requirement and my example is a Nimcha ?

ward · 21st July 2008, 02:54 AM

It meets my criteria for one. It is nice

Rick · 21st July 2008, 03:04 AM

I've got a feeling the blade itself is quite old .

ward · 21st July 2008, 03:12 AM

European blade any markings ?

Rick · 21st July 2008, 03:32 AM

Familiar with this mark Ward ?

We've had no luck so far; IIRC someone (maybe Derek?) thought it might be French .

Any ideas ?

ward · 21st July 2008, 03:47 AM

I will check some references and see if I can find anything give me some time

Rick · 21st July 2008, 04:06 AM

Thanks Ward .

Need better pictures ?

Jim McDougall · 21st July 2008, 04:22 AM

Wow! Thats a lot of response on this!!
Artzi's statement is of course right on target, in fact the ring guard example I got from him was one of a large group made in Zanzibar and exported to Yemen. Buttin's reference in the 1933 work concurs with these being Zanzibar made for Arabs.

Since the 'nimchas' of Morocco always carried trade blades from varying centers, primarily Solingen, they were nearly always full length and many were 'backswords' (single edge straight blades). The term sa'if is simply the term locally applied to these swords, and as noted, is a general transliteration. It is interesting to note that in the Sudan, the kaskara term is completely unknown, and these broadswords are called....sa'if!

The 'nimcha' term for the Moroccan swords with several drooping quillons does actually apply primarily to the distinctive hilt style, disregarding the blade it carries. This hilt form actually developed from early sabres from Venice of the storta type**, and existed early in the 17th century in Morocco, in fact there are portraits of English figures wearing them in that time.

Rick the example you have is extremely nice, especially the great patination! It is one of the early ones, 18th century to be sure, and the blade stamp as previously discussed pretty elusive. I remember trying to find it in all the standard references, and doesnt correspond directly with anything in particular.

For the sake of simplicity, I think these horn hilted, multiquilloned Moroccan swords as well as the Zanzibar variants should be left at nimcha.

The so called 'wedding nimchas' are simply costume and ceremonial pieces and of course the name is in degree correct.

*** the takouba blades were often trade blades, though the native made blades were certainly traded as well, and it would not be surprising to see one on the Moroccan nimcha. The Andrea Ferrara blade would be distinctly Solingen.

All the best,
Jim

** see "A Late 15th Century Italian Sword" by Anthony North, in
"Connoisseur" magazine Dec.1975, pp238-241 for more
on the connection between Italian swords and the Moroccan
nimcha.
Jim

ariel · 21st July 2008, 05:13 PM

There are several examples of swords with " drooping quillons" : Spanish-Moresque Jineta, North African and Zanzibari Nimcha and Omani Kattara ( the older variant). They look like sharing this feature.
Arabs migrated to N. Africa and Iberia quite early in the course of Islamic invasion and converted the entire native population to Islam.
Do these swords carry a " birthmark" of the early , pra Islamic model? Or, were the "droopers" peculiar to local Berber tradition and later just spread both East and West? Or...
You got my drift.
Jim? Ward? Any volunteers?

20th July 2008, 10:46 PM	#1
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	sword i bid on, but dident meet the reserve. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=180261266822 best looking nimcha ive seen.

21st July 2008, 01:01 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	What would we call this one with a backsword blade; Sayf ? I would think so . I've always understood the ring guards to indicate locations other than Morocco and Algeria . Attached Images

21st July 2008, 03:32 AM	#14
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	??? Familiar with this mark Ward ? We've had no luck so far; IIRC someone (maybe Derek?) thought it might be French . Any ideas ? Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 21st July 2008 at 04:10 AM.

21st July 2008, 04:22 AM	#17
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Wow! Thats a lot of response on this!! Artzi's statement is of course right on target, in fact the ring guard example I got from him was one of a large group made in Zanzibar and exported to Yemen. Buttin's reference in the 1933 work concurs with these being Zanzibar made for Arabs. Since the 'nimchas' of Morocco always carried trade blades from varying centers, primarily Solingen, they were nearly always full length and many were 'backswords' (single edge straight blades). The term sa'if is simply the term locally applied to these swords, and as noted, is a general transliteration. It is interesting to note that in the Sudan, the kaskara term is completely unknown, and these broadswords are called....sa'if! The 'nimcha' term for the Moroccan swords with several drooping quillons does actually apply primarily to the distinctive hilt style, disregarding the blade it carries. This hilt form actually developed from early sabres from Venice of the storta type, and existed early in the 17th century in Morocco, in fact there are portraits of English figures wearing them in that time. Rick the example you have is extremely nice, especially the great patination! It is one of the early ones, 18th century to be sure, and the blade stamp as previously discussed pretty elusive. I remember trying to find it in all the standard references, and doesnt correspond directly with anything in particular. For the sake of simplicity, I think these horn hilted, multiquilloned Moroccan swords as well as the Zanzibar variants should be left at nimcha. The so called 'wedding nimchas' are simply costume and ceremonial pieces and of course the name is in degree correct. * the takouba blades were often trade blades, though the native made blades were certainly traded as well, and it would not be surprising to see one on the Moroccan nimcha. The Andrea Ferrara blade would be distinctly Solingen. All the best, Jim ** see "A Late 15th Century Italian Sword" by Anthony North, in "Connoisseur" magazine Dec.1975, pp238-241 for more on the connection between Italian swords and the Moroccan nimcha. Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 21st July 2008 at 04:46 AM.

20th July 2008, 11:58 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	I think this would be classified as nimcha - and you should see Rsword's nimcha - that is the best I have ever seen or heard of.....

21st July 2008, 12:54 AM	#6
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I agree it is not moroccan nice piece. Saif is just a transliteration of the arabic word for sword.

21st July 2008, 01:16 AM	#9
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	generally when refering to a nimcha you are referring to the horn handle the knuckle guard and the distinctive quillions. The blade type is basically not a issue. If you look at the one originally posted the quillons are different and the grips are wood (they look original). That is why it's origin is different close but not not the mark.

21st July 2008, 02:54 AM	#11
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	It meets my criteria for one. It is nice

21st July 2008, 03:04 AM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I've got a feeling the blade itself is quite old .

21st July 2008, 03:12 AM	#13
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	European blade any markings ?

21st July 2008, 03:47 AM	#15
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I will check some references and see if I can find anything give me some time

21st July 2008, 04:06 AM	#16
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Thanks Ward . Need better pictures ?

21st July 2008, 05:13 PM	#18
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	There are several examples of swords with " drooping quillons" : Spanish-Moresque Jineta, North African and Zanzibari Nimcha and Omani Kattara ( the older variant). They look like sharing this feature. Arabs migrated to N. Africa and Iberia quite early in the course of Islamic invasion and converted the entire native population to Islam. Do these swords carry a " birthmark" of the early , pra Islamic model? Or, were the "droopers" peculiar to local Berber tradition and later just spread both East and West? Or... You got my drift. Jim? Ward? Any volunteers?